Best degree program?

[SoundValve7]

So..... I've had partial stints at 2 separate music schools that offered digital producer certificate programs. I left those schools with the intention of returning to college and finishing my bachelor's degree in music and, more specifically, computer/electronic music. While I am leaning towards attending UCSD for their ICAM program, I would like to know if anyone else has had a particularly positive (or negative) experience at a music university that focuses heavily on electronic composition. Please remember that the goal is to finish my degree and that I am not interested in schools that only offer certificates or Associates upon graduation. I am limited to within the United States for my undergrad but may travel overseas for a Master's degree.

Thanks for your input!

[SoundValve7]

Bump.... sniff....

[beats me]

I suppose a question is what do you hope the end result will be? There's very little you can do with that type of degree but at the same time there are plenty of other worthless degree programs that will still qualify you for a middle management position in some generic corporation.

You would probably get a better music education at an institution that specializes in that type thing instead of a university that also offers every other kind of degree imaginable. Expressions in NorCal comes to mind.

http://www.expression.edu/

[Tone Deft]

the goal is to

so, what happens after that? school is a means to an end.

IMO stop fucking around and get a real degree. learn the music stuff on the side.

(I don't know you, just giving hard advice, for all I know you're incredibly talented, or maybe a n00b with lots of money to blow.)

a coworker did the IAC at UCSD, he even took classes from Miller Puckette. he does nothing that has anything to do with music as his job and not making a lot of money.

a friend got a physics degree from UCSD and became a damn good programmer, now he's one of the founders of a small company and if they make it he can retire early.

[aisling]

I suppose a question is what do you hope the end result will be? There's very little you can do with that type of degree but at the same time there are plenty of other worthless degree programs that will still qualify you for a middle management position in some generic corporation.

You would probably get a better music education at an institution that specializes in that type thing instead of a university that also offers every other kind of degree imaginable. Expressions in NorCal comes to mind.

http://www.expression.edu/

I am a graduate of that program and would not recommend it. It is VERY over priced, many broken promises, Instructors who are still stuck back in their "glory days" of 20 years ago and don't get "new music" production.

The positives are, fantastic gear to play with....

Just my experience.

[beats me]

I suppose a question is what do you hope the end result will be? There's very little you can do with that type of degree but at the same time there are plenty of other worthless degree programs that will still qualify you for a middle management position in some generic corporation.

You would probably get a better music education at an institution that specializes in that type thing instead of a university that also offers every other kind of degree imaginable. Expressions in NorCal comes to mind.

http://www.expression.edu/

I am a graduate of that program and would not recommend it. It is VERY over priced, many broken promises, Instructors who are still stuck back in their "glory days" of 20 years ago and don't get "new music" production.

The positives are, fantastic gear to play with....

Just my experience.

I've never been there but I think the same statement has been made about just about every expensive music trade school.

I also agree with Tone. Higher education and degrees/certifications in music are for people who have already established themself in some other career and have money to burn and are interested in music. It's not something you want to present to the world hoping for fame and fortune. You'll get far from it, but you'll probably get to join a support group for people who thought the same thing.

[stringtapper]

Are you only interested in engineering? Only interested in electro-acoustic music? Or pop music made electronically? (by "pop" I mean anything not considered "high art" by academic musicians) Or do you want to learn about music as a whole? (history, theory of tonal, post-tonal, electronic and computer music) There are some good music schools in the US that have good composition departments, where you could study the electronic stuff but you would also be forced to get a more general musical education. If it's not about music in general for you but something specialized, then I would second Tone and beats me, get a degree that can help pay bills and learn the technology as a hobby.

[SoundValve7]

the goal is to

so, what happens after that? school is a means to an end.

IMO stop fucking around and get a real degree. learn the music stuff on the side.

(I don't know you, just giving hard advice, for all I know you're incredibly talented, or maybe a n00b with lots of money to blow.)

a coworker did the IAC at UCSD, he even took classes from Miller Puckette. he does nothing that has anything to do with music as his job and not making a lot of money.

a friend got a physics degree from UCSD and became a damn good programmer, now he's one of the founders of a small company and if they make it he can retire early.

So you would say then that a Bachelor's Degree in Music is not a real degree? Sorry but I can say that I don't find that very credible and money is not necessarily the most important thing to me. I left my family's multimillion dollar business to follow my own dreams and wouldn't have it any other way. The fact that my walls are barren and the only thing I spend money on is improving my studio should show I'm in this for the long haul. I'm proficient in Logic, Live, Reason, Pro Tools, etc and have a pretty good background in synthesis as well as some graphic design skills from my work experience in advertising with Miller Brewing Company. I've had formal instruction in the principles of sound dynamics/acoustics and have spent a fair amount of time in professional recording studios. The goal after graduation is to teach music technology and electronic music production/performance during the day while working towards making enough money playing shows/producing at night until that is my full time career. So why is a "real" degree (as you put it) not as important to me? Because I know I won't go to class or do any of the work if it's for something I don't give a flying fuck about..... for example...a degree in business administration.... been there... done that.... not interested. I'm considering Berklee in Boston as well but am not sure I'll be able to afford it since I am personally funding my education and will have to get student loans. Due to the high costs, I need to be absolutely sure that the program I choose is the right one for me. While I prefer to stay in California for school, I'm open to other suggestions as long as they are in the United States. Concerning Expressions, I've known people who have gone there and they didn't give it the highest marks. Having gone to a similar school in San Francisco, Expressions isn't being considered.

I'm also very well aware of the many expensive music trade schools that, well, suck. I plan on finishing my degree in a subject I am passionate about that will also directly influence my production skills. Frankly, the Music Synthesis program offered by Berklee is the most appealing but I'm just not quite sure I'll be able to cover the costs.

Lastly, I don't dream of fame and fortune attained through a piece of paper from a university. I do, however, dream of a career in music technology and sound design which should be within closer reach with the fine tuning of skills and the credentials to back them up.

Once again, thanks for everyone's input!

[dave999z]

a specific music degree is not something you really need unless you want to teach at a university (thereby participating in the ponzi scheme), in which case you'll need an advanced degree too. but getting a bachelor of arts degree from a four-year school and just choosing to major in music - that general degree will be useful in life. (just don't pay too much for it. seriously. all you students out there, especially if you're doing well, go to your admissions office and threaten to transfer unless they give you an academic scholarship to cover some (or more) of your tuition. it works. what do you have to lose?)

however, i wouldn't recommend spending money to get an advanced degree in some other field unless you really think it through. merely being able to make a living doing something (even if you earn a lot of money) will not make you happy. 99% of jobs you can make a lot of money at will take over your life.

if you're interested in music, unfortunately it's nearly impossible to make a living at (without ending up hating it). i'm not saying you can't in the short term, but eventually you need health insurance, a retirement account, blah blah. and if you're interested in music, everything else you could make a living at is going to bore the hell out of you in comparison. accordingly, your life is going to suck.



i know that was not very responsive to your question. just sharing my thoughts.

[Tone Deft]

OP - wherever life takes you, best of luck. at least the conversation has started.

I don't think you need to go to school to learn to make music. there are people here that make great sounding tunes that didn't go to school to learn production (nebulae, Tarekith, Pitch Black, Sweet Jesus, machinate and many more that I'm forgetting.)

you want to take classes so you can turn around and teach the same classes? sounds like you want to be institutionalized, that's worse than being corporate.

I would add that you should work your fucking ass off as soon as possible. as we get older we have less time and energy for school. in my path, looking back I literally worked as hard as I could during school, I have no regrets about not giving it my all. now I have a great job that I actually like, I don't work nearly as hard (I'm at work now ) and it was the momentum I generated as an 18 year old that got me where I am at 36.

yes, IMO music degrees are frivolous. that physics major friend of mine is also an OUTSTANDING musician (piano, guitar, perfect pitch, all that, amazing guy.) he learned music on his own growing up, he did the corporate software thing and wanted to go back to school to get a music degree. so he quit his job, got as many gigs a week that he could handle and went to school. after a year he quit because he knew it all already and the kids he was going to school with just wanted to get the gigs he was already doing, it was pointless, but he felt better 'scratching that itch.'

my cousin is a singer/songwriter for a moderately successful So Cal band. he recorded and mastered albums for a couple of his bands in Pro Tools, made a video with Tony Hawk, been on MTV and last I heard was maybe working with Rivers Cuomo (I respectfully don't bug him about that stuff.) he didn't go to music school or college, he just got off his ass and did it.

honestly, best of luck, I don't actually know you, keep that in mind. everyone is different.

[SoundValve7]

Since I do want to teach the degree will be useful. Even if I don't necessarily go down that path, I still think it's important to have some sort of college degree as I currently do not have one. I know a lot of the material will be a review of things I already know but I try to see the positive side in that I will have more time to focus on other areas of study. I'm fully aware that many successful producers and performing artists didn't go to school to attain their skills. Still, I do feel that a degree in music technology should give me a little more sway over someone with an equal skill set but without the degree. Considering that most musicians never make it huge, the ability to teach the material at the university level as I get older should assure my bills are paid and I'm not struggling to pay health insurance costs playing gigs as a 65 year old computer musician. To be honest, I see my 40's, 50's, and 60's being spent working on sound design projects for film and TV. I'm 26 now and would like to think that by then I will have mastered the set of skills necessary for scoring.

P.S. Considering a double major at Berklee consisting of Music Synthesis and Film Scoring.

[aisling]

I also agree with Tone. Higher education and degrees/certifications in music are for people who have already established themself in some other career and have money to burn and are interested in music. It's not something you want to present to the world hoping for fame and fortune. You'll get far from it, but you'll probably get to join a support group for people who thought the same thing.

I agree 100% with your statement. I was lucky to have sold my house and had money from the appreciation that I would have not had, and decided to treat my self to a lifetime passion.....I thought I'd meet "seriously" creative people with experience, integrity, and motivation.....75% of my classmates had no musical training, and were interested in the dj/hip-hop route (nothing against that music) and smoking as much weed (nothing against that either) as possible to make sure nothing was being committed to long term memory

I guess though it is better to regret something we have done, then something we have not......

[gjm]

To be fair, this conversation is very North American, in that there are other systems of education and employment that are not driven by the same type of thinking. If you are a home boy and see yourself forever in the same system, then there is some merit in knowing how it works and finding the hoops you need to jump through... and well, playing the game. But if you are a bit of a 'black sheep' then there is a much bigger world out there.

All through high school I was told to forget about art and music, that I would never make any money. Instead of using school to develop natural talent, I caved and used school to do what the majority was doing. I ended up with a Trade Qualification (Highest in my field) and am 3 papers short of a degree in a completely different field. Neither of these are remotely involved with music in any way. Ironically, I am now involved in music full time, and use it to support a family of five as well as pay a mortgage etc,etc. I did not plan it this way though, I fought hard not to be involved with music. My trade qualification is now worthless to me. Due to the reshaping of the world, work in my field is now done in Asia. If I was single and under 20, then I could maybe pay my dues here, but as a life long career, the industry is now dead. Funny how the wisdom of my mentors only 2 decades ago is now worthless.

The positive though is that I still draw heavily from both of my previous qualifications/skill base to make the big picture happen for me. I am not a Boat Builder or a Youth Worker, but the skills contribute on a regular basis. I shake my head sometimes at how synchronistic it all seems. Its nice to have a plan for the next 30 years, but realistically, shit happens.

I totally see where Tone is coming from. He has good advice here. But, the question you need to ask yourself honestly is, are you 'wired' to be a physicist or a pharmacist or a computer programmer or a business manager or what ever else is the generally accepted advice. So you do a 'safe' degree, bore yourself to tears doing it, develop unhealthy coping mechanisms, become easily distracted, and face the prospect of hustling for a job in a market you are half hearted about? I admit to making an assumption here, I am taking the fact that you are doing music as a focus because you actually like it. I often wish I was wired to be something other than I am. I have friends in Computers and Sales and Flying and Nursing etc who all do much better financially than I do. Truth is, every adult male in my close circle of friends would trade what they do for what I do.

Conversely, are you wired to be involved in music? Being honest with yourself here is very important. I meet so many kids who are attracted to the image of music and the selected few who make it big. They are simply dreamers with no talent and no desire to work hard at developing their talent. At 26, you should have a fairly good understanding of your skills, and the feed back you get from your work to date. If you are still chasing an image of fame and fortune without being wired for music then you are a lost cause, and your road will be painful. However, if there is a passion, a set of developing skills, consistent discipline and good work habits and some natural musical ability, then carry on. You have no idea where you will end up, regardless of your intentions.

honestly, best of luck, I don't actually know you, keep that in mind. everyone is different.

+1. My sentiments exactly.

[contakt321]

I have to say, I mostly agree with Tone Deft's sentiments.

Going to school for music is a luxury and has NO RELATION WHATSOEVER to having a successful music career.

Going to music school has A correlation to how much you know about making and recording music.
Hard work (no, like REALLY HARD WORK), luck, and ambition are way larger factors in a successful music career.

[SoundValve7]

To be fair, this conversation is very North American, in that there are other systems of education and employment that are not driven by the same type of thinking. If you are a home boy and see yourself forever in the same system, then there is some merit in knowing how it works and finding the hoops you need to jump through... and well, playing the game. But if you are a bit of a 'black sheep' then there is a much bigger world out there.

All through high school I was told to forget about art and music, that I would never make any money. Instead of using school to develop natural talent, I caved and used school to do what the majority was doing. I ended up with a Trade Qualification (Highest in my field) and am 3 papers short of a degree in a completely different field. Neither of these are remotely involved with music in any way. Ironically, I am now involved in music full time, and use it to support a family of five as well as pay a mortgage etc,etc. I did not plan it this way though, I fought hard not to be involved with music. My trade qualification is now worthless to me. Due to the reshaping of the world, work in my field is now done in Asia. If I was single and under 20, then I could maybe pay my dues here, but as a life long career, the industry is now dead. Funny how the wisdom of my mentors only 2 decades ago is now worthless.

The positive though is that I still draw heavily from both of my previous qualifications/skill base to make the big picture happen for me. I am not a Boat Builder or a Youth Worker, but the skills contribute on a regular basis. I shake my head sometimes at how synchronistic it all seems. Its nice to have a plan for the next 30 years, but realistically, shit happens.

I totally see where Tone is coming from. He has good advice here. But, the question you need to ask yourself honestly is, are you 'wired' to be a physicist or a pharmacist or a computer programmer or a business manager or what ever else is the generally accepted advice. So you do a 'safe' degree, bore yourself to tears doing it, develop unhealthy coping mechanisms, become easily distracted, and face the prospect of hustling for a job in a market you are half hearted about? I admit to making an assumption here, I am taking the fact that you are doing music as a focus because you actually like it. I often wish I was wired to be something other than I am. I have friends in Computers and Sales and Flying and Nursing etc who all do much better financially than I do. Truth is, every adult male in my close circle of friends would trade what they do for what I do.

Conversely, are you wired to be involved in music? Being honest with yourself here is very important. I meet so many kids who are attracted to the image of music and the selected few who make it big. They are simply dreamers with no talent and no desire to work hard at developing their talent. At 26, you should have a fairly good understanding of your skills, and the feed back you get from your work to date. If you are still chasing an image of fame and fortune without being wired for music then you are a lost cause, and your road will be painful. However, if there is a passion, a set of developing skills, consistent discipline and good work habits and some natural musical ability, then carry on. You have no idea where you will end up, regardless of your intentions.

honestly, best of luck, I don't actually know you, keep that in mind. everyone is different.

+1. My sentiments exactly.

Some very admirable advice