Live users and Maschine - an observation

[glitchrock-buddha]

thats the issue with Ni, they're not mpc users either so they don't get it, they might be able to sell maschine for far less than an mpc 5000 street price but if no one is intrested in the 5000 then using that as the model to compet against doesn't make sense. and you might prefer editing on a 15" screen but there is a reason that mpc users haven't flocked to the roland mv series which I think still is better than maschine cause you can connect a monitor or detatch and take the MV with you but i digress

Ni needs to compete with the mpc 2500, mpc 1000, and mpc 500 and they need to understand why people use these machines in droves as oppose to the mpc 5000 and maschine + laptop.
the answer is not really mysterious, these beatmachines make you feel like you are internalizing the music making experience, they make you feel like you're using an instrument like a guitar or bass, they are a more introverted exeprience. mpc fans aren't looking for 20 inch monitors and a gammut of blinking lights, they make music with their eyes closed and know where everything is on the mpc.

I agree with you about the last point and how it feels using something like an mpc or groovebox which feels like an instrument rather than a computer. But I disagree with you that NI somehow don't understand this. Maschine is quite obvious proof that they do. Using maschine feels just like you are describing with regards to the benefits of grooveboxes. That's why they made it. And it's working out very well for them. People are flocking to it because it's damn fun. Sure it would be cool to use it away from the computer, but then you need at least 5gb storage on the thing just for the factory sounds plus a cpu in the thing. By the time you make it stand alone from a computer you're looking at even more expensive than the MPC because of the software plug-in integration. I'd rather have it at the price it is now, as it feels like using a groovebox but it's all stored on the computer in my DAW. While an MPC is the obvious comparison, it's more appropriate to compare it to an MPD32 or something like that since it's closer in price and it's really an advanced midi/software controller. In that respect it just kills the competition.

I don't really think NI "needs" to understand this or that any more than they do. I really think they did a good move with this. I've used roland grooveboxes a fair bit and maschine is infinitely easier and quicker. I've not got a lot of experience with MPCs but have tried them, and I find this similar in concept although still maybe even easier and quicker. The visual feedback of the pads alone are a nice benefit over MPCs.

[starving student]

I know what you're saying buddah Ni obviously know what they are trying to capture I had to exaggerate a little to make my point of how much they are missing it. I don't believe that the mpc is the appropriate piece to compare to maschine either but that's what we are all doing anyway, i think even the latest future music is making the comarison on the cover i haven't read it though, but it's important that people understand a user like yourself, the last thing you mentioned was the benefits of the lights, and thats one of the first things most mpc users mention as a turn off, it really is different strokes for different folks but since allot of us still compare the maschine to the mpc there needs to be a way to draw a line of discussion between the two. most mashcine users are not comparing maschine to other midi controllers which they should cause it would be hard to beat but i guess when you can get an mpc 1000 for less than maschine it becomes questionable

[contakt321]

I know for me - I had a hard time figuring out what to compare it to, and I wonder if I am not the only one.

It doesn't do exactly what the MPC does, but it does way more than just a midi-controller. It seems fair to say that it is doing something different than anything else in the market, right? Especially the hardware/software interface, right?

[starving student]

i think so too contakt i don't know anything like maschine on the market, but then when you add the mp comparison or an mv comparison although impropper it's hard not to do so it's like we're talking about computers all of them right, so its like what if you could put a hard drive in maschine and transfer samples and midi back and forth through usb like the mpc and edit samples on the maschine would the maschine users then not like it anymore?

[starving student]

i think if you're someone who does not want to use anything but the computer that maschine is for that person, it would help the computer feel more like an instrument but then shouldn't that person be somewhat receptive to the mp series? noooooooo cause they'd like an mp experience with another kind of software, i can understand that cause i feel like that half the time but at those times I think Live makes a great compainon for the mpc.

[glitchrock-buddha]

i think if you're someone who does not want to use anything but the computer that maschine is for that person, it would help the computer feel more like an instrument but then shouldn't that person be somewhat receptive to the mp series? noooooooo cause they'd like an mp experience with another kind of software, i can understand that cause i feel like that half the time but at those times I think Live makes a great compainon for the mpc.

Yes exactly. I fit that category. For a couple reasons. For one, it's so easy to have everything sync up when it's all in the box. Never have to worry about any master/slave midi timing and connections and all that. Second, when you make some beats, start a song or whatever, using something like maschine which feels like hardware, but then later you are travelling or somewhere with just your laptop and you open Live or some other DAW and presto, everything you were working on is right there and can be edited.

Ya I'm definitely someone who wants it all contained in the box, but wants it to feel like it's not. I think my current setup of Maschine + Remote SL61 + Kore 2 gets me about as far in that direction as possible.

[contakt321]

Ugh, I wrote an epic response but closed the window before submitting and lost it all

In short:

Although folks from many genres use the MPC, it's my FEELING that the majority of the sales go to people interested in hip-hop. Similarly, it's my FEELING that the majority of hip-hop producers use an MPC (new or used) or ASRs, EPS, and SP1200s.

I bet most software, and even midi controller/hardware companies are trying to figure out how to reach this group - they are spending money, often in the used market and they are avid fans (for exanple, there is a SP1200 gear lust/pr0n but nothing like that for a say...Oxygen 8, or an older softsynth). These are the kind of users/fans all companies want.

It appears that Fruity Loops and Reason have had the most success in this world, but still there is a hardware dominance.

I THINK Maschine may be a way to try to reach these users, by giving them an interface they know - beat machine, 4x4 pads, step sequence, dedicated controls so you don't need a screen yet offering modern conveniences such as software editing VST capability, etc. Essentially a bridge between the past and the present/future.

Have they succeeded in reaching this group? I am not sure. I definitely think they succeeded in making a unique product. I didn't understand it at first either but I have been learning a ton and enjoying the discussion on here.

[shai]

damn. i never realized Maschine was such a Live rip-off

[beats me]

meta tag based sample browser.

[continuous]

WARNING: This post rambles!

It is kinda weird that they both use 'scenes' but Live's session view is just pure genius, and has way more flexibility of course. They're really not all that comparable IMHO. When using Maschine I still think a bit more in linear terms, though that may be because I'm really focusing on basic composition lately, but Live's session view is really fluid and easy to work with in a non-linear way. Not to mention follow actions. Owning both I would never think that Maschine could fill Live's boots. If I had only one it would be Live no question.

Before purchasing, I thought of Maschine more in relation to a PadKontrol, MPD, or a keyboard midi controller with pads... not really in comparison to an MPC, which is legendary. The all in one box I definitely relate with and that's probably why I haven't thought alot about getting an MPC. For intance do you write your midi in Live and trigger the MPC or do you route the MPC's outputs into Live and sync them? I want to try to keep things simple as possible, though I have been running things out of Live to a KP3, a Big Muff and Marshall amp lately and that's really fun.

As far as controlling drumracks I tried this out this morning and found out that indeed you can shift from 16X16 focus area by using the group buttons but it doesn't instant map.

[starving student]

i have a question about maschine, does it have this feature that I found on the korg esx-1, i love this feature, you've got your pattern running and you can do all kinds of stuff to it manipulate it like crazy
every which way and then you can press like shift and another key (not in front of it right now)and it will revert back to the original pattern that you were playing with out all of the editing,and then if you want you can do the button combo thing again and it will revert back to the effected manipulated pattern.
this feature singlehandedly makes the korg esx-1 so much fun and incredible for Live use I love this machine and it's great for sample manipulation.

can maschine do this?

[glitchrock-buddha]

i have a question about maschine, does it have this feature that I found on the korg esx-1, i love this feature, you've got your pattern running and you can do all kinds of stuff to it manipulate it like crazy
every which way and then you can press like shift and another key (not in front of it right now)and it will revert back to the original pattern that you were playing with out all of the editing,and then if you want you can do the button combo thing again and it will revert back to the effected manipulated pattern.
this feature singlehandedly makes the korg esx-1 so much fun and incredible for Live use I love this machine and it's great for sample manipulation.

can maschine do this?

Maschine has dedicated buttons for undo and redo, so I would say yes.

[starving student]

thats just one layer undo or you can do a bunch of stuff and then go all the way back?

[glitchrock-buddha]

thats just one layer undo or you can do a bunch of stuff and then go all the way back?

Hmm. Not sure. Didn't get that far yesterday (my first day with maschine).

[bog]

i think if you're someone who does not want to use anything but the computer that maschine is for that person, it would help the computer feel more like an instrument

Yeah, I think that describes me as well. I have used hardware like the electribe and MPCs and while I appreciate what they are, I've come to realize that they're too limited for me and that's why I've decided on a software setup based on Live. The main reason for choosing Live for me (and I'm sure many others as well) was the session view. Up til now, I knew of no other software program with a non-linear pattern sequencer like Live's session view, other than FL Studio which I can't use because I'm on a mac. But Live has disappointed me with its inherent limitation of not being able to record automation in the session view.

And now, looking at Maschine, I feel like it IS serious competition for someone like me who's main interest in Live is the session view style workflow. I don't care that much about follow actions or other Live exclusive session view features. All I really want is to be able to simply record controller movements while in a session view-like environment, and Maschine does this. And Maschine has a built-in hardware step sequencer. Live users would need APC40 and Max for Live whenever it comes out in order to accomplish that. Knowing what I know now, I probably would have gone for Maschine instead of buying Live.