FM Hardware vs FM Software- Got an Opinion?

[Superchibisan]

i LOVE fm8

[WaveRider]

Is there really a difference in sound? Do you stand by your aging classic hardware (perhaps even collect them), or does FM7-8 etc make any FM hardware (DX7, TX81z, TX802 etc) simply unnecessary? Please share your opinion.

Cheers. G.

I got a TX802 for cheap, the guy was happy to upload it because he had fm8.


Poor guy


...really, the synth sounds stellar and quite different than fm on the computer. That was my surprise purchase of 2008. ...it has been discussed on kvr, and most owner agreed it sounds different than fm8. but that is maybe not worth to bother, and the vst is more versatile. But the hardware has punch, aliasing, cuts thru the mix, is strangely alive because of artefacts maybe

[Homebelly]

if you were to use analogue signals as your fm sources then this would also add to the overall sound but not many people do.

Also, what do you mean by this? Can you give me an example to help me better understand FM synthesis.

Cheers. G.

FM is a synthesis technique.
In any of the DX or SY synths the technique uses digitaly generated wave forms as the FM modulator and carrier.
In a modular synth you can use analogue oscillators to produce the wave form, and then route them so that one of them is
modulator and one is the carrier. This then produces a new voice. In an analogue or analogue modeling synth, this is quite an inofficiant
way to work as you basically get only one voice. The DX and SY synths get around this limitation by using operators.
This is where the programing becomes complex and why some people think software is better as it is more visual, where as on a DX there is a lot of menu diving. Digital also means the wave forms are constant, where as in an analogue system the wave forms can vary over time, and so the FM tone can lose some of its clarity. THE dx'S became popular as they where able to produce very clean bell like tones. This is only a very small part of what FM can do.
This is a very very simplistic explanation, Chang might be able to fill in some of the gaps, we have shared a thread befor where he explained some stuff while i was contemplating buying a DX7 MKII
I have a friend that is an FM nut.
Also, If you also want to hear some very cool, almost 100% FM based music, do a search of the interwebz for Jopy.

[gjm]

I got a TX802 for cheap, the guy was happy to upload it because he had fm8.

Do you mind me asking what 'cheap' is for you? I am trying to figure out what market value might be for an 802.

Also, are you creating sounds from scratch with it? or just using the presets?

...really, the synth sounds stellar and quite different than fm on the computer. That was my surprise purchase of 2008. ...it has been discussed on kvr, and most owner agreed it sounds different than fm8. but that is maybe not worth to bother, and the vst is more versatile. But the hardware has punch, aliasing, cuts thru the mix, is strangely alive because of artefacts maybe

So there is clearing something there for you sonically. Mmmmm. Any links for a project you might have used it on? No worries if not available yet.

[gjm]

FM is a synthesis technique.

According to wikipedia, Yamaha's patented FM synthesis was NOT Frequency Modulation as discovered/developed by John Chowning, but Phase Modulation Synthesis, a variant or 'special case' of FM. Clearly it is digital in origin, and therein I think lies some of my question/ inquiry about hardware vs software. Some people hear the difference. Yes, there is a signal chain to consider, but does the origin of the digital signal matter? ie Yamaha's black box, or a computer of any type? Identical signal source or different signal source? Could this be the difference?

Also, If you also want to hear some very cool, almost 100% FM based music, do a search of the interwebz for Jopy.

Will do.

[Homebelly]

FM is a synthesis technique.

According to wikipedia, Yamaha's patented FM synthesis was NOT Frequency Modulation as discovered/developed by John Chowning, but Phase Modulation Synthesis, a variant or 'special case' of FM. Clearly it is digital in origin, and therein I think lies some of my question/ inquiry about hardware vs software. Some people hear the difference. Yes, there is a signal chain to consider, but does the origin of the digital signal matter? ie Yamaha's black box, or a computer of any type? Identical signal source or different signal source? Could this be the difference?

Also, If you also want to hear some very cool, almost 100% FM based music, do a search of the interwebz for Jopy.

Will do.

The part about PM and FM is kind of sorta splitting hairs.
The difference isn't the technique, its the tools being used to reach the same goal.
Traditional FM is applied by using two signals in the same, or in related, tonal areas to amplify and modify the weaker signal.
This is most useful in broadcast applications, FM synthesis is an innovation, or even miss-use, of this technique.
PM is a way of stabilizing the signals being used. The only difference is that a PM generated tone is going to be easier to keep in tune and
so will produce a cleaner FM tone. Hence why the DX synths where able to produce very clean bell like FM tones.
Because the tones being used to FM each other are more stable, they are able to be used to produce some very cool and gnarly sounds, while still being consistent enough that you could rely on them to produce the same sound, more or less, every time. So, a DX7 was able to store pre-sets or patches.
If your really interested, then open up the operator demo and have at it. Its very easy to see and hear whats going on.

[Nick the Zombie]

Nice bit of education there, Homebelly. Thanks for the read!

[Homebelly]

Nice bit of education there, Homebelly. Thanks for the read!

Don't just trust me..
This is how i understand it from years of trial and error.
I might have it all ass backwards..
Although i am pretty confident about the FM/PM thing.

[gjm]

Nice bit of education there, Homebelly. Thanks for the read!

Yes +1

So is it chasing a red herring talking about the origin of the digital signal? ie, is there a quality of signal and processing inside Yamaha's TX black Boxes and the DX7 that is different if generated somewhere else? Sorry if this is just a stupid question, I gots to ask it though

[Homebelly]

Nice bit of education there, Homebelly. Thanks for the read!

Yes +1

So is it chasing a red herring talking about the origin of the digital signal? ie, is there a quality of signal and processing inside Yamaha's TX black Boxes and the DX7 that is different if generated somewhere else? Sorry if this is just a stupid question, I gots to ask it though

In my opinion?
Probably only in so far as the stuff that happens after the FM.
That would be all things down the line including the envelop, the filters, the DA converter and so on...
There might be some thing to the quality of the digital oscillators being used as operators, but i can't see that my self.
I would imagine them to be 16 bit which is more than enough for what they are needed to do.

[sleepwalkermusic]

I've got a TX816 and it sounds better than FM7. I haven't used FM8. I will say FM7 is insanely easy to edit.

[gjm]

I've got a TX816 and it sounds better than FM7. I haven't used FM8. I will say FM7 is insanely easy to edit.

Nice. Do you have it set up so as to use it actively in your music, or is it a 'collectors' type item for you. Do you use a software editor as well? Just asking because maybe softsynths like Operator and FM7-8 are easier to use than the actual software editors themselves.

[stevedd]

I used to have a DX7 and DX11. Sold them both. They're the only synths I regret selling. The original DX7 was a flawed beast (MIDI spec terrible/noisy output) but it was somehow marvellous. FM8 (I've only tried the demo) is very versatile and crystal clear, but lacks the DX7's "character". Perhaps, as in so many things in life, character comes from flaws, rather than perfection.

[freshdrumma]

there is nothing on fm8 like the classic dx 7 organ sound, i mean, it get really close, but that i don't know what is missing.

dx7 love it!

[Coupe70]

So I mostly read statements about the old FM hardware.
What about the new ones, like FS1R or DX200 ?
Or perhaps FM using a Nord Modular ?