Controller Recommendation & Should I upgrade?

[timwoolsey]

So I'm brand new to Ableton, I bought a copy of Ableton 7 end of last year but never actually had the chance to use it until now.

I'm enjoying the stuff I can already do with it, but am looking for a good controller recommendation...

I'm mainly going to be using Live for live performance, but will do some studio work. I was looking at the Novation SL37... is that a good controller? My budget maxes out around $350 for a controller and Musician's Friend has a b-stock one selling for $349 so that'd be great. I'm just trying to figure out what a good starter controller is, any thoughts on this would be awesome.

Also, since I'm so new and I really don't know the software at all, is Live 7 enough or should I go ahead and get Live 8 to learn on? Is it worth the upgrade cost just to be able to learn on 8 instead of 7 basically...

Thanks!
~Tim

[Tone Deft]

the SL series are good controllers. the drum pads are quite stiff, that's my biggest complaint. automap is very cool as the controls' names show up on the LCD screens. automap is a little awkwardly designed, I just use it as is and don't get tricky with it. being USB bus powered is a plus for me. the Behringer BCR2000 is a great box, very versatile, straightforward and cheap. the UC33 and Akai MPD are also attractive. check out peoples' signatures to see what they use, also just start looking at gear sites.

IMO the best reason to stay up to date with the latest version is to be able to check out what other people are doing. if some power use puts up something to share, it's going to be with the latest version, and Live is not backwards compatible.

it's hard to say if you need Live 8 because you haven't pushed the limits of Live 7. maybe wait for a discount or someone selling their Live 8? for me Looper, group tracks, the ability to color things was worth the ~$150 (or whatever) price for the upgrade.

[timwoolsey]

Awesome, thanks man. I'll look into some of the stuff you mentioned

Do anyone else have any opinions about good starting controllers?

[H20nly]

I think he's got you on the right track...

I'm using a Novation ReMote Zero SL... It gave me a little bit of confusion with Cubase SX3 but LIVE loves it. If you don't need the keys from the standard SL series this is a cheaper alternative (about $220.00). It makes life much easier for me. Like Tone Deft said the drum pads are really "stiff" but the amount of control you will have with instruments, compressors, etc. is awesome.

I have an Akai MPD24 too. It does control some things well but it doesn't seem to separate those things anywhere near as nicely... What I mean is, if you set a knob to control say the 80Hz freq in EQ 8 on tab1 then toggle to the next freq on tab2 and so on, you can't use the previous knob for anything else. There is probably a way to manually do it, but it was playing with the MPD24, trying to find that way, and wanting more that caused me to start looking for something better. That brings me back to the SL which takes all that control surface pain out of my life. Just pick a rack, effect, device, etc., in LIVE you want to manipulate double click the top of it, then start manipulating it. You can jump around without a mouse really, really well.

I have an M-Audio Axiom 25 which also works pretty good, but again, no where near as smooth as what the SL series has to offer in my opinion. The Axiom 49 and 61 both have faders and more knobs so they could definatley work better than the 25 depending on what you truly hope to control... Ableton is ready for them if you go that route.

**Note** the pads on the MDP24 are still the bomb... I just don't try and control near as much as I use to with it.

Good Luck.

[H20nly]

Almost forgot about your other question...

This may start some arguments, but if you're just learning the software I say roll with 7. By the time you get good and comfortable and thinking you have it figured out people will be talking about version 9. Don't worry, they won't stop making new shit that will cause you to question whether your old stuff is obsolete and I'm NOT only talking about Ableton here. Just remember - 7 has only been out for about a year and a half. How did all those producers make music before that??? I don't know about you, but I've heard some dope ass music in the last decade and much of it was done with software that was WEAK compared to Ableton 7 - including Ableton 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Save your cash, better yet, get Session Drums, Sampler, etc., or upgrade to the Ableton Suite if you don't already have those tools. Ableton comes out with a new version every year give or take 3 or 4 months...

[aisling]

Almost forgot about your other question...

This may start some arguments, but if you're just learning the software I say roll with 7. By the time you get good and comfortable and thinking you have it figured out people will be talking about version 9. Don't worry, they won't stop making new shit that will cause you to question whether your old stuff is obsolete and I'm NOT only talking about Ableton here. Just remember - 7 has only been out for about a year and a half. How did all those producers make music before that??? I don't know about you, but I've heard some dope ass music in the last decade and much of it was done with software that was WEAK compared to Ableton 7 - including Ableton 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Save your cash, better yet, get Session Drums, Sampler, etc., or upgrade to the Ableton Suite if you don't already have those tools. Ableton comes out with a new version every year give or take 3 or 4 months...

I think your advice is 100% correct. I always go back to the electronic music of the mid to late 90's which got me into daw production and remind my self it was done on 16 bit 44.1 with much less the computing power and half the tools....
Upgrade mania is hard to stay immune from, it is a very virulent phenomenon.......But once you settle into a "flow" of productivity and creativity, it is much easier to sit back and let a ver or 2 roll by without the feelings of inadequacy.

[timwoolsey]

Thanks guys! I'll stick with 7.

Could anyone explain in simple terms the differences between the SL37 and the SL Mk II are? What would be the pros and cons of each... Also, is there a good keyboard controller that has a crossfader like the SL Zero?

[H20nly]

Differences between ReMOTE SL and SL Mk II:

• Mk II ships with the latest Automap 3 PRO
• All dials and faders are now touch-sensitive
• All SL Mk II’s buttons are illuminated
• Mk II features a single LED screen (as it now features the Automap Heads-up GUI)
• SL MK II’s top row of dials have 11-LED rings for instant feedback
• Top row of encoders are now smooth, rather than detented.
• SL Mk II’s transport control buttons can also be used as fully assignable buttons.
• SL Mk II features new ‘soft-feel’ drum pads.
• No longer features batteries

Taken from http://www.novationmusic.com/products/sl_mkii?option=1

Sounds pretty sweet but now I'm mad at you for making me realize that my new(ish) ReMote Zero SL is trumped... That fader is tight!!

I can tell you from all the research that I did that the fact it comes with AutoMap PRO (as opposed to the free version) is a big(ish) deal. People were pissed cuz that used to cost extra...

[timwoolsey]

Differences between ReMOTE SL and SL Mk II:

• Mk II ships with the latest Automap 3 PRO
• All dials and faders are now touch-sensitive
• All SL Mk II’s buttons are illuminated
• Mk II features a single LED screen (as it now features the Automap Heads-up GUI)
• SL MK II’s top row of dials have 11-LED rings for instant feedback
• Top row of encoders are now smooth, rather than detented.
• SL Mk II’s transport control buttons can also be used as fully assignable buttons.
• SL Mk II features new ‘soft-feel’ drum pads.
• No longer features batteries

Taken from http://www.novationmusic.com/products/sl_mkii?option=1

Sounds pretty sweet but now I'm mad at you for making me realize that my new(ish) ReMote Zero SL is trumped... That fader is tight!!

I can tell you from all the research that I did that the fact it comes with AutoMap PRO (as opposed to the free version) is a big(ish) deal. People were pissed cuz that used to cost extra...

Thanks! I totally could have found that myself had I been remembering the SL37 is a Remote SL.

What does touch sensitive faders & dials mean? Obviously I know what touch-sensitive means but what affect does this have on the use of the units... does anyone know?

I really wish the MK II had a crossfader

[H20nly]

The new Zero does have a cross fader. http://www.novationmusic.com/products/z ... controller That's what I meant when I said "that fader is tight"...

Hmmm. I don't know how bad you need those keys...

Touch sensitive as a new feature (and I'm just guessing on this) probably means they respond faster than previously. On mine if I want to control say, the volume on Audio track 1... I would have to move the fader all the way up and down until it "catches" (for lack of a better term). After that it will move the volume up and down with ease. And No, you don'have to do it every time, but maybe more than once. I don't perform with it so I don't sweat it that hard... Once you get the proverbial hang of it, none of that matters anyway. Its just like a turntable or pressure sensitive keys in that sense.

The increments in which it raises/lowers are sometimes a little off though. So say for example I was at -0.30dB and I wanted to move up, it may jump to 0.02dB but I can never get it at exactly 0 after that. I don't really care much because I feel its close enough. Just a little below true zero is probably better anyway... It won't jump around though. So if you get to -0.30dB and you move it up or down to adjust you can always take it back to -0.30dB. If it stops on zero on say Track 2 then it will continue to do so. Its consistent once it "marks" its stopping points. Does that make sense?

Having said all that, if you read the links I sent you there is a whole section boasting their relationship with Ableton and I think those odd increments may be a thing of the past. It sounds as though they have tightened it up a bit.

If I had the money I'd buy the new one and give you mine... that and the Presonus BlueTube are the 2 coolest pieces of hardware I have, based on overall performance enhancement as a whole. I do love my BX8a monitors though... I'd gladly share the love for the upgrade. Don't hold your breath though bro.

Maybe you should buy one from Guitar Center or somewhere that you can walk in and purchase it so that you can take it back if you don't like it... OR when you're done test driving it.

[timwoolsey]

I don't know how bad I need keys either I was hoping to create a bit of music on my own though, so I was wanting them just for the potential... I don't know...

Thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense now.

I looked into that Presonus BlueTube, looks sweet - its basically just a mic preamp right? What sound card do you use it with? I need a USB card and was planning on this one http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=500880

Thanks for all your help in this, I really appreciate it.

[aisling]

... that and the Presonus BlueTube are the 2 coolest pieces of hardware I have, based on overall performance enhancement as a whole.

I second the value of the blue tube....I am a happy owner my self.

[H20nly]

The BlueTube is the truth. Yes, it is basically just a preamp, but it changed everything for me. I've only had it about a month and just in setup time alone it saves me half an hour everytime I use the MIC or a guitar on a new track. No more gates and compressors on the inputs in Cubase or on my Audio tracks in Ableton just to get a "decent" signal. No more gain on my mixer, just good, clean, warm, natural sound with LOTS of headroom. I wish I had it about 2 years ago.... I use it for my MIC and my bass guitar. The only catch with it I have found is that it works better if you let it warm up. So fire it up first then your DAW and other gear. Once those tubes get warm its on!

I use an Alesis MultiMix 8 Firewire mixer as my sound card. I have audio turned off on my motherboard. It does the job, but I (recently) found (proved?) the preamps just aren't any good. I kept having to fight with the line noise hence the gates and compressors on the inputs in Cubase (Ableton doesn't support that as far as I can tell) not to mention having to have the gain up in addition to the volume on the mixer. I think it would be a good mixer for small shows and such and for the price it does a great job, but the next mixer I buy WILL have good pre amps. Hopefully that won't be any time soon.

That Edirol looks pretty sweet. My best advice to you would be take your time and do your research when it comes to mixer/soundcard/input system. If you get it right you will have great audio tracks. If you miss, you will fight with line noise until you become a pro at masking it or you get new equipment. Reverb and delay can only go so far.

No worries on the help dude. I wish I would have had someone to point me in the right directions... Do unto to others right?

Peace