OT dj discussion

[AdamJay]

true enough drush. i suppose live "remixers" helps to compartmentalize the variations in performance technique. (folks that book me for live pa's still refer to me as a DJ everywhere besides the flyer). since its something new, we (admittedly) cannot help but to want to noveltize that.... and the more i think of it, that could be a bad thing, or it couldn't. It really does depend on what is coming out of the speakers.

your rant reminded me of something my friend Brandon said. DJing is a re-interpretation of pre-recorded music. When rave djs started playing, hip hop djs didn't think they were djs. When CDJs (and final scratch) got big, some vinyl djs didn't consider it DJing. Its a great argument.

but i also look at what all those forms of performance have in common = beatmatching. and what doesn't Remixing (in the studio sense) require? Realtime Beatmatching. And since so many traditional vinyl DJs and their followed generations of CDJ/FS/Traktor DJs hold the action of beatmatching so dear. I really think its only fair to call with Surgeon, Ruskin, Sasha, etc. do "Live Remixing". And i doubt any of them would take offense to the term. Surgeon was a remix artist before anything else, so it truley is natural that his performances would evolve in this way. A guy like Sasha can't produce if it meant his hands getting chopped off, but give him the mastered source material and he'll be able to rearrange it, for what its worth he is a better Remixer than he is a producer or a DJ for that matter.

not only do i think the exclusion of beatmatching makes this new artform different and uniquely classifyable, but i also look at how i personally would use it. i've been revamping my own live set to also include loops/ snippets/ phrases and my own edits of other tracks (much of it ripped vinyl). So this turns my live pa into a live pa with other people's material as a backdrop. Does this make it a DJ set? Does this remain a 100% live set? nah, i think it enters the new are of Live Remixing.

great thread btw.

[hoffman2k]

i saw Claude Young on NY eve. supposedly one of his last dj sets ever.
You cant beat a good performance on vinyl. But in the end that is not what matters. What matters is how the crowd reacts to what you do or play. Claude young for example, if he turns down the volume. the crowd goes nuts. even if it was unintentional. A lot of dj's perform well enough to be able to do that. But it doesn't work that way. A dj either has the vibe or he hasn't. Digital or analog, it doesn't make a difference. It's a spiritual thing.

[drush]

i do agree with that.. the exclusion of beat matching makes this a different animal. i'm pointing out that the standardization of beat matching in the first place was born only out of necessity. then it turned into an artform, and an artform that requires a specific, practiced skill.

*which, btw, is to say nothing of the skill in being a good dj. to my mind that goes way beyond the mechanics of beat matching. anyone can understand how to beat match and with enough practice, probably anyone can do it. but that doesn't for a moment mean they automatically can be a good dj. not by a long shot.

anyway.. i'm really enjoying the quasi-confusion this all brings and the intelligent conversation. i'll never stop thinking derrick, kevin, bone, d-wynn are Real djs in the traditional sense (even if kevin now uses fs). but that's a huge part of where i came from. then there's imo one of the best djs in the world who very deliberately blurs the line between djing and live remixing, has been for many years (hawtin). then later the first time i heard something really inventive come over the pa and realized surgeon had abandoned the decks all together... oh shit. the concept of your live pa with your own and other's material is really exciting. i do the same thing at home ;p. i look forward to the lines further disappearing, forcing us to invent new language for what's going on.


p.s. - just to nitpick, surgeon wasn't a remix artist first, he was just an artist/producer. unless maybe you call the odd le dang sample reason enough to call him a remix artist?

[hoffman2k]

Oh yeah. forgot to add this.
We are entering the age of the retiring dj's. I wonder how many people will still be dj's or live remixers that are active till the age they drop dead.

[drush]

Oh yeah. forgot to add this.
We are entering the age of the retiring dj's. I wonder how many people will still be dj's or live remixers that are active till the age they drop dead.

i wouldn't be so sure about claude.
but yeah, it's a trip to realize that derrick/kevin/juan are in their 40's.

further ot - watch out for bone this year. the man is sitting on a scary amount of superb music.

[AdamJay]

p.s. - just to nitpick, surgeon wasn't a remix artist first, he was just an artist/producer. unless maybe you call the odd le dang sample reason enough to call him a remix artist?

sorry, let me rephrase. His remixes shot him into global recognition before his own production work. at least for me, i heard the remixes first before the EPs. have a look at his remix discography, its twice as long as his "artist" discography. i am by no means playing down his own production work, the man knows what he's doing be it original material or remixes. Just saying he's so well known as a remixer, perhaps more than anyone else in techno, that what he's doing on stage these days is really a natural evolution.

[hoffman2k]

Oh yeah. forgot to add this.
We are entering the age of the retiring dj's. I wonder how many people will still be dj's or live remixers that are active till the age they drop dead.

i wouldn't be so sure about claude.
but yeah, it's a trip to realize that derrick/kevin/juan are in their 40's.

further ot - watch out for bone this year. the man is sitting on a scary amount of superb music.

Tell him to drop by. He knows the way
Yeah. they still rock. i've seen derrick/juan/bone/craig/hawtin last summer. It's nice to hear that original detroit sound again.
I hope those guys still come back for a couple more years.
Kraftwerk are called pioneers and they are still touring. Maybe they'll set the bar.

[special ed]

anyone have one of those Grex controllers? the demos made it seem like a great, intuitive dj-oriented interface for Live. i know there were a lot of complaints about unfilled orders a while back - dunno whether anything got resolved or not.

i got one, i liked it very much, but the crossfader sent out inconsistant midi data, i sent it back to be repaired, it got fixed. it broke again. the idea in it is great, and if i ever have one custom built, i would definently use some ideas from it. but these ones are built rather dodgy, despite all the metal on it.

[Rx]

that's unfortunate. i do hope either they or someone else get on the ball and come up with a controller that's a little more than faders & knobs.

[mike holiday]

[quote="drush"]for some reason sunday morning apparently = rant:

on the one hand, i grew up in detroit and in the middle of all that. i was at the music institute, listened to the wizard everyday, remember hawtin as richie rich. growing up around some of the best djs in the world i had a really specific idea of what djing was. still do. dj bone is a friend -- every time i see him i know THAT'S djing. it's an art and craft that will never be less than that. and as we all know it's lightyears away from just playing records.


i was right there with you In the D.
richie rich at the shelter...fast forward radio on WDET...the packard building....voom partys...Juan/Kevin/Derik with deep space radio (they paid money to have a radio brodcast)
the bankle building on woodward...1217 griswald(these people turned into syst3m), Mike Huckaby Dj'ing all over the place
Famly Function at Alvans...1515 broadway..1315 broadway
Truly insperational place and time to be

a couple of years ago i went to see paul okenfold dj here in alaska where i live now...only went because at that time NO dj's ever come up here.
any way to make a long story short he stood there drinking hieniken talking to his roodie leaning on the other turntable..the whole night he never held a mix longer then 4 bars.
Left me feeling actually pissed off.
It's like steeling the show when you have no right

now days it seems this is all to standerd...I'm wondering (hopeing) with all these people who can't mix turning over to tractor and laptops....Will let the people who spent hour after hour after hour, day after day when nobody is around learning the skillz to mix that shit..have their place back!

but then will that disillusion the crowd to as far as the people up there putting out origonal shit in a "remix" whatever capasity...
..I like to see live shows to, I would happily listen/dance to any live performance......but when it is origonal--at least reconstructed..

playing tracks of a laptop and saying you dj though...that is like our good buddy mr. jokenfold

and the whole time nomater what the situation the crowd still don't know

I'v met to many people who wish they knew how to play something, but never learnd, grab a pair of decks or computer or what ever and be like "im a dj" just add water instant performer..
now with the market turned comercial it seems to hard for the real talent the stand out from the crowd ...

i'm waiting for the next rebirth

[Komplex]

playing tracks of a laptop and saying you dj though...that is like our good buddy mr. jokenfold

and the whole time nomater what the situation the crowd still don't know

I'v met to many people who wish they knew how to play something, but never learnd, grab a pair of decks or computer or what ever and be like "im a dj" just add water instant performer..
now with the market turned comercial it seems to hard for the real talent the stand out from the crowd ...

i'm waiting for the next rebirth

Haha. I hear what you're saying. And it's not just dj's, it's the live guys too, all turning to laptops. It used to be about jamming shit on the fly, switching up patterns, programming drum machines as you go and tweaking synths all over the place. No audio streaming or complete stereo tracks "cut up" into segments.

Now If a "live pa" is booked you can be sure that most of the time it'll be a dood with a laptop streaming audio files from the hard drive.

BUT, Laptops offer so much flexibility So if you can't beat em, join em.
Well you CAN beat em but its so much easier to use a laptop and you get way more sonic flexibility/variety in a much smaller package. So why not?

I guess the same thing can be said about laptop dj'ing. You get more flexibility and variety at the expense of that "x" factor that makes real dj'ing what it is (was?).

You said it yourself, the crowd doesn't know any better, only the trainspotters.

Sad but entirely true.

[Rx]

sadly, i think someone who actually is pushing the boundaries and taking advantage of technology will get overlooked.

[Shane 54]

I've been spinning records (vinyls) for a very long time, back in the days when the dj was just equal to the glass collecting boy in a club, and there were no 'superstars' and 'residents'. When good dj cd players were finally made, people started to complain about some people 'playing burned cds instead of vinyl' and how lame that was...

Today most of the djs carry as much cds as vinyl (if not more), and sometimes plays 70%-80% of their sets from those. Does anyone complains?

It's the same thing with laptops. I switched to the G4/Live combo a year ago, and the first party I played with it was one of the best nights I ever had. The fact I was having all the control I couldn't have with the traditional way just blew me away...
Not to mention the fact what was a huge 28kg recordbag now a fully loaded 7.6kg backpack, and there is no such thing as a 'record I left home'.
I can still mix with vinyls and cds, and wouldn't have a problem of doing a whole set with those, I just don't want to do it anymore. Live simply works better for me. If you call me a 'remixer' instead of 'dj' this way, fine, but my way of doing a dj set is only possible with a laptop. And that's more than perfect for me.
At the end - to be honest - the crowd doesn't really care how you make them having a good time, once they have it...

Cheers!

Shane

[drush]

p.s. - just to nitpick, surgeon wasn't a remix artist first, he was just an artist/producer. unless maybe you call the odd le dang sample reason enough to call him a remix artist?

sorry, let me rephrase. His remixes shot him into global recognition before his own production work. at least for me, i heard the remixes first before the EPs. have a look at his remix discography, its twice as long as his "artist" discography. i am by no means playing down his own production work, the man knows what he's doing be it original material or remixes. Just saying he's so well known as a remixer, perhaps more than anyone else in techno, that what he's doing on stage these days is really a natural evolution.

hmm. i'm not saying you're wrong of course, but it's interesting how different our experiences were. for me, from the point of Pork Machine, Magneze, Move, Argon, Badger Bite... i was automatically buying everything he did. Force + Form was landmark. everything on Counterbalance has been significant in a purpose maker-like way.

he did do lots of great remixes. Sense Fiction, Birmingham, Earthbound, and Booster really stand out for me. but virutally everything original he's done are the reasons why he's significant... to me. that's also true for as far as i knew regarding what made him a big deal. specifically, mills & d clarke playing a lot of his stuff in '95/'96 did a lot for him.

[drush]

i was right there with you In the D.
richie rich at the shelter...fast forward radio on WDET...the packard building....voom partys...Juan/Kevin/Derik with deep space radio (they paid money to have a radio brodcast)
the bankle building on woodward...1217 griswald(these people turned into syst3m), Mike Huckaby Dj'ing all over the place
Famly Function at Alvans...1515 broadway..1315 broadway

clearly we were standing in a lot of the same rooms growing up.