BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

[Android Bishop]

jesus you sound like a 60 year old retiree. YOU DAMN HIPPIES!!

I'm not a hippie, although every hippie i have ever talked to has been utterly charming and insightful. Art is the discovery of inner space and the knowing of oneself. Scientists on the other hand are self deluded arse holes with no perception of life, history or themselves. They are the dullards of the universe. I rely on the millions of years of history and art to work out what is coming in the future. Science in itself is not evil, its just most that follow its path are the pinnacle of self deluded mediocrity. They have egos big enough to believe they are helping humanity where in actual fact they are bringing about its end. Now let me get back to my joss sticks and hemp soup loony tits.

LOL as you TYPE this on a COMPUTER over the INTERNET. You are one unbelievably ungrateful hypocrite. Tell you what, while you're at it with your deep inner exploration, why dont you meditate us up a cure for AIDS and cancer and a vaccine for the swime flue that's already killed over 100 people? Oh thats right, because meditation is yet another form of ego stroking, thus making you another self centered arsehole.

BTW if you actually follow millions of years of human history, you will find that all art and civilization developed with scientific advancement and continues to move forward. There is absolutely ZERO indication that time is moving backwards. Sorry but you missed out on the stone age, it aint coming back.

[Android Bishop]

Leonardo Da Vinci, was a scientist. For example he stole the dead to study anatomy. He cut them open, and probed around at their insides, and took note of what was there. He was also a fine artist. Go figure.

Which brings up an interesting point that always bugs me in both communities: in certain scientific circles and artist circles there is this idea that art and science are separate and at "war" with each other or something. I draw absolutely ZERO distinction between the two. A beautiful painting or piece of music requires a scientific mind and skills to be able to execute it flawlessly. Creativity isn't enough, it takes a fundamental knowledge of one's medium and discipline to hone one's mind to break it down into connecting pieces to be able to make it a reality. Likewise, a beautiful experiment cannot rely on textbook knowledge alone, it takes a great deal of creativity to think of novel ways to approach a problem and not only solve it, but prove without a doubt that it was solved using various techniques and experiments. Art and science are the same thing, for many more reason than I have stated here.

[Android Bishop]

Awesome. Exciting work. Sounds like you've had an interesting journey.

I love science. I love *cough*mad*cough* scientists. After 8 years of a total anti-science administration here in the States, I can only hope that we're once again embracing mankind's two most important goals:

1. Warp Drive
2. ReAnimation

[Emissary]

jesus you sound like a 60 year old retiree. YOU DAMN HIPPIES!!

I'm not a hippie, although every hippie i have ever talked to has been utterly charming and insightful. Art is the discovery of inner space and the knowing of oneself. Scientists on the other hand are self deluded arse holes with no perception of life, history or themselves. They are the dullards of the universe. I rely on the millions of years of history and art to work out what is coming in the future. Science in itself is not evil, its just most that follow its path are the pinnacle of self deluded mediocrity. They have egos big enough to believe they are helping humanity where in actual fact they are bringing about its end. Now let me get back to my joss sticks and hemp soup loony tits.

LOL as you TYPE this on a COMPUTER over the INTERNET. You are one unbelievably ungrateful hypocrite. Tell you what, while you're at it with your deep inner exploration, why dont you meditate us up a cure for AIDS and cancer and a vaccine for the swime flue that's already killed over 100 people? Oh thats right, because meditation is yet another form of ego stroking, thus making you another self centered arsehole.

BTW if you actually follow millions of years of human history, you will find that all art and civilization developed with scientific advancement and continues to move forward. There is absolutely ZERO indication that time is moving backwards. Sorry but you missed out on the stone age, it aint coming back.

LOL? ROFL? LMAO? now you sound like an 8 year old. Sounds about right, Emotional age 80 intellectual age 8, its the same for scientists around the world. And Its not like we'll even get an apology from you fuckwits when you end the world with you spastication, just a "wooops that wasnt supposed to happen" BOOOOOM!!!

Give me a cavewoman and some wild boar any day over these hairless souless women and chemical infested foods. And stop arguing with me, I'm right and your wrong, just deal with it, everyone can see i trounce you intellectually.

[Machinesworking]

I see a lot of issue dodging in this thread. I say if you are against animal research, go back to school and learn everything there is to know about biology and biochemistry and biotechnology and animal research and all that so you have a grasp of the subject and are therefore in a position to find some sort of alternative. Otherwise its just a bunch of horseshit based upon worthless opinions grounded in a lack of knowledge of the subject at hand.

You and others here are also dodging anybody here who does deny that there are some benefits from animal testing, but who see studies continually getting funding that have proven nothing, that are basically just keeping people employed. This is far too common in the 'industry', and should be addressed....but hey, go ahead and take 20 posts and as many pages to make fun of hippy musicians if it makes you feel better.

[Tone Deft]

I see a lot of issue dodging in this thread. I say if you are against animal research, go back to school and learn everything there is to know about biology and biochemistry and biotechnology and animal research and all that so you have a grasp of the subject and are therefore in a position to find some sort of alternative. Otherwise its just a bunch of horseshit based upon worthless opinions grounded in a lack of knowledge of the subject at hand.

You and others here are also dodging anybody here who does deny that there are some benefits from animal testing, but who see studies continually getting funding that have proven nothing, that are basically just keeping people employed. This is far too common in the 'industry', and should be addressed....but hey, go ahead and take 20 posts and as many pages to make fun of hippy musicians if it makes you feel better.

please back up your far too common 'facts.'

[stringtapper]

And Its not like we'll even get an apology from you fuckwits when you end the world with you spastication, just a "wooops that wasnt supposed to happen" BOOOOOM!!!

So will I get an apology from you if you find a way to stop them from ending the world?

[Machinesworking]

@ tone.... This sort of topic is hotly debated, and industry people will back up their studies to make it look good, as if they never keep funding coming just to keep a facility open, while PETA people will do the same to make it look like animal testing does nothing and is entirely wasteful. Google is your friend, there's plenty of information supporting both sides in this.

My personal experience with people still currently working in the industry, who aren't necessarily anti animal testing verifies that there is in fact a lot of the typical waste in regards to keeping funding coming. Any time you get grants or money from large corporate interests, you get this, it's just even more depressing to me when the 'waste' is monkeys and other animals. I don't really see this as a debatable issue? To the credit of the scientists, in my experience knowing people in biotech etc. most labs are pretty humane, the evil ones are the exception.

[Android Bishop]

I see a lot of issue dodging in this thread. I say if you are against animal research, go back to school and learn everything there is to know about biology and biochemistry and biotechnology and animal research and all that so you have a grasp of the subject and are therefore in a position to find some sort of alternative. Otherwise its just a bunch of horseshit based upon worthless opinions grounded in a lack of knowledge of the subject at hand.

You and others here are also dodging anybody here who does deny that there are some benefits from animal testing, but who see studies continually getting funding that have proven nothing, that are basically just keeping people employed. This is far too common in the 'industry', and should be addressed....but hey, go ahead and take 20 posts and as many pages to make fun of hippy musicians if it makes you feel better.

I stand by what I know and I'm not going to back down in the face of ignorance. Me dodging issues? I've backed up my assertions with specific examples and explained away in detail how everything gained by scientific discovery is useful in one way or another, even if it isn't immediately obvious. Even failed experiments are useful, because they show us what DOESNT work and what ISNT true. What have you come up with to back up your position? Nothing. Just a bunch of wankery.

Again, animal testing sucks. I hate doing it because I love animals. But there isn't any other choice. Believe me, if there's an alternative, most scientists go that route because its EASIER and CHEAPER. If we can do an experiment with a cell culture instead of an animal we're going to do it, cause no one wants to deal with the hassle of animal testing. Its a pain in the ass. There are probably bad labs out there (just like there are bad musicians) but clamping down on the entire industry by putting even more roadblocks up for scientists to climb over only serves to stifle good research.

[Tone Deft]

all I'm reading is heresay and more of teh typical interweb "the government is the boogeyman controlling everything, everything's corrupt" paranoia. write what you want but too much of this discussion is flapping sphincters.

I don't know why you need to fall back on unsupported hyperbole when you can 'go after' Bishop for his complete lack of support for ANY animal rights and thinking he's god. you could write a book on why that's messed up.

or the fact that killing animals is part of his job and it's not for food.

or look at the kinds of drugs 21st century man is into, PENIS PILLS!!

or how much money do they spend on advertising as opposed to research compared to other industries.

or why drugs developed in the US cost more for US citizens than they do in Canada for their citizens.

there are many aspects to this discussion. it's based around animals but there's obvious corruption without having to resort to hyperbole.

[Aequitas123]

so... who is winning this debate? Cause if it makes it to 15 pages dom is going to lock the thread.

final comments...

[Tone Deft]

the terrorists.

[Android Bishop]

or why drugs developed in the US cost more for US citizens than they do in Canada for their citizens.

Bloated patent system and pharmecutical payoffs to politicians. You wont hear this from most people but its crazy patent litigation and fees that have a huge impact on the ridiculous cost. Other countries get it cheaper cause they have a generic market.

[Kodama]

Ok then, care to explain, scientifically, why human children are not used for invasive research in matters that may aid other human children?

LOl, explain scientifically? Ok, scientifically its against the law. That scientific enough for you?

So that's the only guide, the law? If animal testing was illegal, you would find an alternative.

There are so many facets to this conversation. My main point is that ethics play a vital role in gaining knowledge, not everything is a means to an end.

Industries and institutions have grown around the ideas of animal research, know that it was ingrained in your instruction for more than one reason.

Not having a degree in science, I still can say that scientists who test on animals are, for the most part, causing great suffering in the name of gaining knowledge. The value of that suffering is often ridiculed, as the suffering of some humans was in the past and is in the present. The scientist never gains a degree on losing sanity from being caged (sometimes for decades), being operated on multiple times, poisoned, starved, suffocated, or euthanized in various manners. I have never had these done to me, but to me it similar to saying that I would not shoot a human in the stomach to see the expression on their face or to study the tissue damage, because I can perceive the suffering that this act would cause.

Saying that a person needs a science degree to understand the importance of the ethics of science is like saying that you can not have a valid opinion on computer child porn without being a programmer. Along with it's successes , human exploration of science has had it's major failures, nuclear and chemical weaponry, introduction of species to control other species. monsanto's little adventures in seed control, etc... These are all areas where scientists would have told us that we have no place sticking our noses (our ethical concerns).

The point is, yes, you have a degree in science, but you are not science incarnate, you are a human explorer of science on behalf of the human race, and therefor bound to the ethical consequences of humanity's role in science.

[Aequitas123]

i say Kodama wins if only for his blatant disregard for rationality