BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

[Kodama]

Also, you might start your defense of animal suffering in science by acknowledging the utter bs that permeates through so many experiments.

These experiments never fall into the gray area. They are wasteful and cruel.

Monkeys raped and implanted with nicotine pumps, then dissected to study the effects of nicotine on the fetus, or waiting until the fetus is born, then dissecting it a few months later. We know that smoking is bad for pregnant mothers, but this experiment wants to see if vitamin c can help a fetus not get as many birth defects. We already have human mothers that smoke, and we know that vitamin C is safe for them to take, so there is no reason not to perform this study on animals in the first place, yet it has gotten government funding for over 2 decades!!!

This is just one idiotic and cruel study that gets the thumbs up, and millions of our dollars from the NIH. These studies also handily pass merit from supposed welfare organizations such as the IACUC, who are manned by research scientists and lab assistants in the industry.

Then, you have all of the studies on cosmetics that we have known are not needed.

Then, you have military scientists studying the effects of weapons. They shoot cats and dogs to test bullet wounds. Why not shoot human cadavers?

The list goes on, these experiments are the equivalent of pulling the legs off a bug (or chimp) in order to watch it squirm for money.

[Kodama]

i say Kodama wins if only for his blatant disregard for rationality

Ethics fall into the subset of rationality, even if they are unpopular or inconvenient.

[scott nathaniel]

This discussion recalls this song for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcUxHOF6D8g

[Salty P]

i say Kodama wins if only for his blatant disregard for rationality

I 2nd that!

[Kodama]

This discussion recalls this song for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcUxHOF6D8g

Or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xFlsEWl6wY

[Kodama]

Also, why do we only find out about the very "invasive" manner of experiments through leaks or undercover investigators?

Why do science institutions not declare ALL of the documentation of their experiments without a FOYA request and money and long delays, only after months of legal battles?

Why do they hire multimillion dollar PR departments that mask what happens behind armed guards and razor wire?

Why not be proud of this? Because it will start an unwanted discussion?

[Tone Deft]

funniest post of '09??

Kodama - it does give him cred. stop wasting time trying to knock that and just talk to the guy. you have your unique viewpoint, he has his. look at the context of the thread when he posted that. it was beyond retarded. take your post about living a life untouched by animal testing, it's just as bad. move on, you two could make this interesting (I use that term loosely.)

Bloated patent system and pharmecutical payoffs to politicians. You wont hear this from most people but its crazy patent litigation and fees that have a huge impact on the ridiculous cost. Other countries get it cheaper cause they have a generic market.

you spelled pharmaceutical wrong, nitpicking but it's funny.

it's no excuse. if the government was really looking out for people and not the industry they could cut through all that. it's a clear example of money over people because the government can pretty much do whatever they want, domestically at least.

i say Kodama wins if only for his blatant disregard for rationality

he's alright, his heart is in the right place, he just needs to bring his head to the table. unfortunately he's arguing against facts with hearsay. surely he knows someone that can argue this better than he is. someone with facts.

Kodama - yeah, keep posting pics like that you'll get banhammered so hard it'll knock the patchouli clean off you.

[Kodama]

No patchouli for me, I prefer a nice shower..

I'm bringing facts and ideas to the table, I think people are just seeing everything through their own color of glasses.

If someone says "it's either the animals or us", they get instant cred for the popularity of the sentiment.

[Aequitas123]

I'm pretty sure they both deserved it.

[Tone Deft]

no, you've made some good points, they just get overshadowed by the passionate arguments you're making.

thanks for showering.


in this forum which is worse, hippies or Tiesto? strange place.

[Kodama]

And I do know people with degrees in bio science as well as ethics who would argue the point, but not so sure they wanna post in a music nerd forum.



Seriously, the best thing might be for a lay person who is interested to read one book from each side.

For my side, I put up Dr Greek's Golden Geese and Sacred Cows:

http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Cows-Golde ... 806&sr=8-1

For the curious scientist, I would put forth Specious Science:

http://www.amazon.com/Specious-Science- ... gy_b_img_b

[Aequitas123]

And I do know people with degrees in bio science as well as ethics who would argue the point, but not so sure they wanna post in a music nerd forum.



Seriously, the best thing might be for a lay person who is interested to read one book from each side.

For my side, I put up Dr Greek's Golden Geese and Sacred Cows:

http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Cows-Golde ... 806&sr=8-1

For the curious scientist, I would put forth Specious Science:

http://www.amazon.com/Specious-Science- ... gy_b_img_b

Your main problem is right here in this post.

Find another scientist that agrees with Dr Greek. Preferably one that doesn't work for an organization dedicated to stopping animal testing. Better yet, find a peer reviewed study/article.

[Kodama]

no, you've made some good points, they just get overshadowed by the passionate arguments you're making.

Well for humans, facts are always shrouded in passion. Even the mathematician drives forward to receive more neural opiates.

I am the only person that is able to represent this side at all in this debate (not sure what Emissary is talking about).

The greater idea is that there should be a an ethical debate amongst all humans as to our role in subjecting other beings to our experiments, there should be questions.

[Kodama]

Your main problem is right here in this post.

Find another scientist that agrees with Dr Greek. Preferably one that doesn't work for an organization dedicated to stopping animal testing. Better yet, find a peer reviewed study/article.

That argument is a fallacy. The fact that he is in an organization is due to his beliefs, not the other way around. If you search for a scientist on the internet who has these leanings, chances are they will be found because they are listed under some organization.

Besides, all I said was read a book from each side, and you protest my entry because if bias, even though I declared the bias.

[Aequitas123]

That argument is a fallacy. The fact that he is in an organization is due to his beliefs, not the other way around. If you search for a scientist on the internet who has these leanings, chances are they will be found because they are listed under some organization.

Besides, all I said was read a book from each side, and you protest my entry because if bias, even though I declared the bias.

You misunderstand me. I was criticizing your lack of sources, not the bias of your only source.

Plus, if there were any fallacy it would be your Appeal to Authority.