balanced or unbalanced wiring?

[Tone Deft]

that's dictated by the receiving device. connecting balanced to unbalanced... you might as well go unbalanced to unbalanced.

the math reduces to
received signal = signal - ground.

the -signal pin is ignored, usually it's grounded or left floating at the receiving end.

make sense?

[aqua_tek]

neither balanced nor unbalanced. My choice is Denon

[UKRuss]

Ya, I believ that the more expensive the cable the warmer the sound, so I just buy the most expensive things on offer, even if i don't need them. My reasoning?

Well, it's clear. Audiences in clubs and pubs all across the land are so clued up on the subject if don't use balanced cables they literally riot. I've heard them gasp mid-set. 'I...I...I don't think he's using balanced cables!!!'.

Then the screaming starts.

Cat fur is also the number one cause fo studio accidents....and deaths.

Fasceti...faseet...fasheeesous...

joking aside, I don't think it matters. At all. But damn is it nice to buy some new shiny expensive cables!

my 2c.

[slatepipe]

i hold my hands up, i bin an av technician for 10 years now and i still dont really know the difference

the thing i find even more confusing is with jack cables - i thought if they had tip and sleeve then they are mono and if they have tip, ring and sleeve then they are stereo. how does that tie in with balanced and unbalanced? and is there a difference between us and uk cable wiring?

er...normally i just plug stuff in and keep my fingers crossed

[UKRuss]

**cue Tone with his umpteenth explanation**

Hang on to your geekometers!

[fishmonkey]

i hold my hands up, i bin an av technician for 10 years now and i still dont really know the difference

the thing i find even more confusing is with jack cables - i thought if they had tip and sleeve then they are mono and if they have tip, ring and sleeve then they are stereo. how does that tie in with balanced and unbalanced? and is there a difference between us and uk cable wiring?

er...normally i just plug stuff in and keep my fingers crossed

a TRS jack/cable is essentially a 2-channel cable (2 signals and one ground), but that doesn't mean it's just a stereo cable... sure you can use it to send L+R (that is 2 unbalanced signals), but there's other things you can use it for too... you could use it as in insert, so sending 1 mono signal and receiving 1 mono signal (again, both unbalanced)...

or you could use it to send a mono balanced signal, in which case the devices on both ends of the cable must have balanced circuitry...

a balanced connection reduces the effect of interference that might be picked up by the cable itself, which is why it is most important for long cable runs... for those bamboozled by Tone Deft's algebra, it basically works by cleverly using phase cancellation...

the balanced sending device outputs the original signal (i.e. analog waveform) down one wire, and at the same time sends a phase inverted copy of the waveform down the other wire... so it's the same waveform going down two wires, except they are exactly out of phase... now travelling down the wires, both of these waveforms have the same noise waveform added to them... at the other end, the balanced receiving device flips the phase back on the copy+noise (which also flips the noise waveform), and adds it to the original+noise... this means there is now twice the original waveform, but because the phase of one of the noise waveforms has been flipped, the noise component cancels out when the two signals are summed...

fuck that's hard to explain in words...

[UKRuss]

But nicely done.

[john doe by choice]

Backed.

I'm not sure what Tone's post adds up to, but I have a feeling it's long for "I'll be eating my idiot words"

quoted for retarded posterity. u serious? 'eat my words?' you talk waaaay too much smack Jon Doe. I thought it was pedantic to write that out.

JIF - balanced removes noise from 'point to point.' so any noise picked up between a sending balanced device to a receiving balanced device is eliminated.

Apologies for the improper grammar/wording, by the "I'll" in my statement, I actually meant me, not you...yesterday was a long day, part of which was spent in an attic that was hot as blazes, installing a new bathroom fan in my house.

I did say I didn't understand that post quite fully, although it looks as though we were in agreement.

In other words: Tone, chill out, no one was calling you an idiot...I don't think anyone would on this board.

[Spindrift]

The fact of the matter is a pro studio is gonna have quite a bit of balanced cables being run all over the place. If you understand how a balanced cable phase cancels noise there would be no way you could argue that it's a bad idea.

There are certainly arguments against balanced cabling, and you will notice that some very high end gear will not use balanced connections.

The problem with balanced cables is that the phase cancellation process will not be completely transparent unless the design and components used are 100% perfect.
Since you would not have any interference introduced to the signal in a well designed studio anyway the issues introduced by the phase cancellation in a device with balanced inputs might very well degrade audio more than it improves it.

For long runs in a less controlled environment balanced cables will be better than unbalanced, but for studio equipment it's not always the case.

Basically one could sum it up like this:
In a perfect studio with perfect equipment there will be no difference.
In a studio where you have some interference introduced to the signals and quality equipment, balanced will be better.
In a studio without interference and average equipment, unbalanced will be better.

[ark]

am I incorrect in thinking that balanced cables will eliminate any noise they pick up along the way via phase cancellation despite whether your outputs are balanced or not?

anyone?

balanced cables will eliminate any noise picked up along that cable's path from balanced sending device to balanced receiving device.

How do you get that?

If your balanced cable is connected to an unbalanced output, then one of the signal wires is shorted to the shield. So your balanced cable has effectively become unbalanced.

[SubFunk]

everything that allows me to be run balanced i run balanced.

[Tone Deft]

interesting poll results. well put Subfunk

Apologies for the improper grammar/wording, by the "I'll" in my statement, I actually meant me, not you...yesterday was a long day, part of which was spent in an attic that was hot as blazes, installing a new bathroom fan in my house.

I did say I didn't understand that post quite fully, although it looks as though we were in agreement.

In other words: Tone, chill out, no one was calling you an idiot...I don't think anyone would on this board.

wow man, read it my way, cut me some slack. even then you're telling me to chill out, you're killing me, argh! can't win. are you one of my ex-es or what?

[djsynchro]

If you're not balanced, I recommend meditation.

[slatepipe]

i hold my hands up, i bin an av technician for 10 years now and i still dont really know the difference

the thing i find even more confusing is with jack cables - i thought if they had tip and sleeve then they are mono and if they have tip, ring and sleeve then they are stereo. how does that tie in with balanced and unbalanced? and is there a difference between us and uk cable wiring?

er...normally i just plug stuff in and keep my fingers crossed

a TRS jack/cable is essentially a 2-channel cable (2 signals and one ground), but that doesn't mean it's just a stereo cable... sure you can use it to send L+R (that is 2 unbalanced signals), but there's other things you can use it for too... you could use it as in insert, so sending 1 mono signal and receiving 1 mono signal (again, both unbalanced)...

or you could use it to send a mono balanced signal, in which case the devices on both ends of the cable must have balanced circuitry...

a balanced connection reduces the effect of interference that might be picked up by the cable itself, which is why it is most important for long cable runs... for those bamboozled by Tone Deft's algebra, it basically works by cleverly using phase cancellation...

the balanced sending device outputs the original signal (i.e. analog waveform) down one wire, and at the same time sends a phase inverted copy of the waveform down the other wire... so it's the same waveform going down two wires, except they are exactly out of phase... now travelling down the wires, both of these waveforms have the same noise waveform added to them... at the other end, the balanced receiving device flips the phase back on the copy+noise (which also flips the noise waveform), and adds it to the original+noise... this means there is now twice the original waveform, but because the phase of one of the noise waveforms has been flipped, the noise component cancels out when the two signals are summed...

fuck that's hard to explain in words...

mint. cheers. it sort of makes sense. though my 10+ year habit of plug it in and see what happens will be hard to break. and i am bewildered about the using it as an insert thing you said

[dancerchris]

IMO - for what it's worth.....

There is no panacea in a balanced cable rig and often times when used at the less the stellar studio setup it introduces problems. A lot of so called 'pro' gear is not properly balanced and as such induces ground loops or other noise issue when hooked to other gear that is (or not). To me it makes sense to do long runs balanced because of the RF rejection. Also mikes (or other end gear) are relatively safe to be balanced. Other than that for the 'DJ' or the home/small studio it is a crap shoot to go 'balanced' because you may not be. See http://www.rane.com/note151.html


hmmm Spidrift seemsw to have it down....