The big wide world of modular audio synthesis environments

[PLacidBasilisk]

So I'm starting to think about diving into the world of max/msp, but I'm scared you see. From what I gather, there's a lot to learn. Like everybody else there's a lot of other ways I could spend my time, like practicing real instruments or fine tuning my skills with the synths I already own.

Is it worth the time spent learning to program in these kinds of programs? Is it a valuable skill and experience in and of itself, ie. even if I don't end up programming my own patches for use in my music very often, will it give me a useful understanding of things which I might then be able to apply to other aspects of electronic music composition?

I'd love to hear everybody's experiences starting out with and mastering max/msp or puredata.

[slatepipe]

i bin learning it slowly in my own time and at college for about 2 years now. the tutorials and helpfiles are very good, and there is lots to learn by picking apart other peoples patches which they put online. i find it quite difficult though some people get their heads round it quite quick. asking questions on the forum gets quite good results too. i just splashed out and got max 5 on the educational licence before my college course finishes so im looking forward to spending a lot of the summer getting stuck in

[Tone Deft]

did you consider Reaktor? never used it but it seems to be one level of abstraction higher than max/msp.

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

Listen carefully.

Don't. Do. It.

Don't.

.m

[PLacidBasilisk]

@ lof-fi: are you a seasoned pro? Why so certain? Why is it not worth it?

Slatepipe: What exactly are you using/intending to use it for?

@ tone deft: Up to this point I haven't actually considered reaktor. In fact I was leaning towards puredata simply because it's free. What are the upsides of reaktor?

[Homebelly]

@ lof-fi: are you a seasoned pro? Why so certain? Why is it not worth it?

Slatepipe: What exactly are you using/intending to use it for?

@ tone deft: Up to this point I haven't actually considered reaktor. In fact I was leaning towards puredata simply because it's free. What are the upsides of reaktor?

It can be seen as a modular environment where you only need to worry about patching built moduals together.
So, if you want a six oscillator synth with an envelope generator for each ocs. Go for it, all of those bits and pieces are made and ready to use.
Wanna create some kind of granular synth.. go for it, just crack open the macro folder and wire the bits together.
You cab create and design some very cool GUI's using bit maps.
Skys the limit..
However..
If you want to go beyond the sky..
No sweat.
Reaktor becomes a box of individual components.
Open up a new empty instrument and all of the math and logic macro's are available.
Lots of audio in and audio out options and utilities.
You basically designing circuits.
Every thing is very visual.

Max 5 has gone some way to adding actual visual building blocks, and they are very cool.
But the parts available are very limited until you crack them open and start modifying them your self.
This is where MAX/Msp starts to take over as you are not limited by the box.
You are able to code to your hearts content.
if some thing is not available, you can code it.
At this point it becomes very text based.
This is in no way a criticism *he says carefully avoiding eye contact with the MAX/Msp love bois *
In fact my next purchase is gonna be MAX for Live.

[PLacidBasilisk]

Wow thanks for the detailed response. It sounds as if Reaktor might be the better option for me, considering how little I know at this point. Am I correct in guessing that creating virtual circuits with great visualisation will teach me to some extent how to create real circuits? I'm curious about circuit-bending too and I wonder if the two are complementary.

One thing I don't understand, how are Max's coding capabilities superior to Reaktor's?

[pepezabala]

if money is an issue you can dive deep into Pure Data - it's the same approach as max/msp but open source, thus free.

One main nice thing about max and pure data are the built in tutorials and helpfiles. Any object carries a description of what it does within, often there are exmples of how to use it that you can just copy and paste into your own creations.

Next important point is that max or pure data are not primarily designed only for the generation of sound - any input can be used for anything you can imagine. Lots of people use one of those programming environments for the creation if any kind of interactiveness, installations etc.

if you just want to make bleeps and produce music, get a daw and abuse it. If you want to design a system where certain bleeps and blops happen as a result of something else, then you will use pd or max.

and then there are a million of other things yet to explore by the users.

[Tone Deft]

Reaktor is the ultimate Lego set.

max/msp is like owning the Lego factory.



max/msp is a bunch of basic building blocks that you make modules with. then you connect the modules to make stuff.

Reaktor starts with modules.

[paradiddle]

nice analogy! Core cells in reaktor allow you to build your own filters,oscillators from scratch.

[leonard]

Wow thanks for the detailed response. It sounds as if Reaktor might be the better option for me, considering how little I know at this point. Am I correct in guessing that creating virtual circuits with great visualisation will teach me to some extent how to create real circuits? I'm curious about circuit-bending too and I wonder if the two are complementary.

One thing I don't understand, how are Max's coding capabilities superior to Reaktor's?

i would just start with max if you're going to start from scratch. you may learn how reaktor does things, then you'll just have to relearn it (syntax) wise if you're going to go with max at a later point, and i guess with max for live you would? did you download the demo? do that and give it 30 days. and i'd say no, reaktor wont help you build electronic circuits. really totally different. as far as coding goes, you can write your own modules in c with max, if they don't already exist, or if you want to reinvent the wheel for whatever reason. then you'll have to learn c, which can be both fun and annoying at the same time. last i checked (reaktor 3/4) reaktor didn't have fft analysis? maybe it's changed. of course thats not the holy grail of sound synthesis, but it can be fun ..

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

@ lof-fi: are you a seasoned pro? Why so certain? Why is it not worth it?

No. I'm not a seasoned pro. But do check out my DyNAmic sequencer for the Lemur, or some of my other projects. I love Max, but getting into it just for the sake of it. No I wouldn't do that.

So I'm starting to think about diving into the world of max/msp, but I'm scared you see.

Don't be.

From what I gather, there's a lot to learn.

Yes.

Is it worth the time spent learning to program in these kinds of programs?

Well. I beleive that learning is good. Yes.

Is it a valuable skill and experience in and of itself, ie. even if I don't end up programming my own patches for use in my music very often

Not really. If you don't have an actual use for it, I'd spend my time on something else.

...will it give me a useful understanding of things which I might then be able to apply to other aspects of electronic music composition?

Some knowledge is transferable. But still, just doing it for the sake of it. No.

I'd love to hear everybody's experiences starting out with and mastering max/msp...

It's been a challenging, fun and rewarding experience.

[mock]

I think that even if you don't end up patching a lot (although patching is tons of fun), you'll learn a thing or two about DSP and signal path which will help to get a better understanding of other softsynths/samplers/effects.

If you choose to get puredata, you should get Miller Puckette's book (it's free on the net).

With Reaktor 5 it's easier to patch actual devices (because of the high level modules), and with Reaktor Core you can do pretty low level dsp (and yes FFT has been implemented with core by a user).

That being said, Max would be a more obvious choice for a Live 8 user. Also Max' documentation is way better than Reaktor's doc. And with max 5 it's possible to do much cleaner patches than with Reaktor.

[PLacidBasilisk]

Thanks for all the helpful feedback guys. I think I'll download the Max 30 day trial and see how I get along. Having said that, I'm on a pretty tight budget and if Puredata is relatively similar to Max it would be great if I could use it instead. Nobody seems to have pushed PD so far though, should I take that as a sign that it's best to stick with Max?

[pepezabala]

pd is not commercial. max 5 got a big number of innovations that pd is lacking.

Still, if you just have a concept for doing something with triggers, sensors, synthesis and interaction, you might be able to have it done in pd as easy as in max.

also interesting: pd runs on linux, iphones, whatever.