WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

[SubFunk]

now, i am confused...

do you want to mix your tracks in a way to be able to give it to a mastering afterwards... then watch the peak level not going over about at least -6db... to leave enough room to work with.

if you want to be on the level of what 'other people' put out, with your final product, then smash it to death with a limiter that it hits 0db spot on (meaning limiting at exact 0db), don't forget to squash so hard that the db meter not even flickers at all anymore...


ok, ok i am joking... but what do you want? i am really confused now!

however, if you need to watch clipping, Peak is the one to read, Tone Deft is right.

EDIT: if you don't trust Abletons meter on the master for whatever reason, sonalksis has the free freeG and it's very precise.

[djwack]

Doesn't the RMS value also depend on your signal window? Usually I set it to maximum (1000ms in RMSbuddy)

Is there a standard value for the signal window for RMS metering?

[Angstrom]

Is there a standard way to measure RMS? I mean, don't the RMS value also depend on your signal window? Usually I set it to maximum (1000ms in RMSbuddy)

Is there a standard value for the signal window for RMS metering?

In my case the window is as long as the song.
I'm looking at the average of the entire song.

Not that I use this value for anything because it doesn't really have a practical value other than saying "you haven't crushed your song to death". But you would hear that anyway.

RMS metering while you are actually mixing is not much use really, I mean Peak metering and as fast as possible is the thing you need at that point. I'm unaware of the benefits of RMS metering unless its in the context of a compressor.

Having a check over the final wave with a statistical tool, just for interest sake, is the only place I ever find out my entire tracks RMS level

[Tone Deft]

Angstrom - you're making this way too complicated.

the ONLY thing I mean to get across is that RMS is a type of measurement. that's it. you're opening irrelevant cans of worms left and right. RMS is an adjective, he's using it as a noun. you're making excuses about the context being understood. when you have to qualify your statements with "under such and such condition" and "it's understood that..." that's an indication that you're making excuses for poor use of the word. that's exactly the kind of assumptions that can get you into trouble with RMS.

I've already stated the danger of using RMS for peak detection in the case of not wanting to hit clip, forget headroom, you know what I meant, we all get it.


"the RMS for the song's amplitude"
is fine, but it was never stated he was referring to the amplitude, now you're changing history. it was implied but it sounds n00bish to ask about a song's RMS. RMS is an adjective.


yes RMS depends on time.

Live's meters are not RMS, so this crap does not apply.



see what happens when you use terms incorrectly? it leads to confusion.

[tw1nstates]

@Subfunk,

You are right, peak should be around -6db so the mastering engineer has some headroom. however i was asking about average level (RMS) before mastering.

i.e. I was trying to work out stg that I can't understand by analysing other peoples music, namely how loud (I am sure there is a better term but lets just assume that when i mean loud I am talking about the average level and how close that is to 0db's for the track) peoples tunes are pre mastering. I could speak to some mastering engineers but I figured that this forum would be a good place to start as well.
Yes you can smash the tracks, totally right, however that in my experience leads to artifacts. This is partly why I am asking as (againg assuming that you have mixed your track correclty, no dc offset or any of that nonsense) the closer to 0dbs the RMS of the track is then the louder the mastering engineer will be able to get the final track without it sounding horrid.

I think it's good to understand this as it's an indicator of how loud the mastering engineer can pump your track without it sounding badd - Tone that's the whole point of this discussion, not peak or anything like that. I thionk you misuderstood what I was asking at some point as you keep on about peak levels and whatknot, anyway, no matter. . .

@ DJwack, oh dear, that's a whole other can of worms!

I ue Elephant at the moment which gives a constantly updated readout, soundforge and wavelab will give you a readout for the whole track as an average.

I just check the parts with the bass, drums and most of the rest of the track in. That's gonna give me more of an understanding than say the whol track as the intro and outro are going to affect the final read out.

[Tone Deft]

Angstrom - tell ya what... next time you take a track to a mastering engineer that you have a friendly relationship with (IOW he's comfortable laughing at you) ask him "what's the RMS of the track?" and see if he doesn't chuckle or look at you strangely. then ask him about this conversation.

in real life I use this term and have to be specific about it, without assumptions, it has led to confusion, so much so that when two people give a measurement that disagree by ~2/3 RMS is the first thing to consider, one measurement was in RMS the other wasn't.

it's semantics, annoying, nit picky semantics. just trying to tighten the game around here, that's all.



I also completely bow down to any points you make from your real world experience, I have mine, you have yours. they might be different but I completely respect your experiences.

[Bonehead]

So Tone, what is THE RMS of your tracks?

[Tone Deft]

42dB(potato)

it's up to you to find the potato.

[Angstrom]

Angstrom - you're making this way too complicated.
the ONLY thing I mean to get across is that RMS is a type of measurement. that's it. you're opening irrelevant cans of worms left and right.

no, you attacked me on several fronts and I defended myself. You made all kinds of assumptions which were incorrect and I tried to clarify those assumptions. I try to clarify them and you insult me further.

I defend myself and you claim I am opening a can of worms.

I stated

the Root Mean Squared (average) db values of an entire track will indicate how much dynamic variance there is in that recording.

(assuming that the wave is not fucked with a DC offset and peaks are all OK)

The subject was clearly stated as the amplitude of a song in decibels, and the "RMS (average) db values of an entire track" Adjective = RMS , Noun = Decibels

RMS is simply the Root Mean Squared value of a signal. it doesn't imply decibels or any use of the measurement, nor does it imply anything about dynamic range.

Correct, that is why I stated that the topic was an RMS average of the amplitude of an entire track, measured in decibels
but you decided to insult me anyway.

So, once again so you can insult me further.

The RMS values of the amplitude as measured in decibels, of an entire rendered track whose peaks are below zero db and the DC offset is negligible.

[Bonehead]

Group HUG!

[Tone Deft]

wow, how did I attack and insult you again? not my intention at all. goddamn this is a rough room. you think I attacked and insulted you? really? wow.

let's keep this simple. RMS is an adjective, it should be used with care because it can cause confusion.

the only thing I spoke negatively about was careless use of the term. I know you know your shit, I know better than to ever assume you're talking out your ass and don't know what basic shit like this means.

this is not a big deal.

[Kent_in_CO]

This post made me realize that most of my tracks actually top out above -6db, usually in the -3db range. I got into this habit even after reading Tarekith's tutorials - must've missed the part where he advised to not go over -6db on the master.

Anyhow, a few questions:

- If I plan on doing my own "mastering" (meaning that I'm just going to slap a limiter on to the final mix), do I need to worry about the fact that I have less headroom? I assume there's nothing "magical" about -6db?
- If I did want more headroom, could I simply put a utility on the master and lower the gain?
- I'm probably not alone in using the kick as a foundation to build a track around - in other words, the volume of the kick stays constant, while other elements are mixed around it. What peak level for a kick do you typically start out with, to ensure that your mix remains under -6db.

Production is a goddman rabbit hole. It seems like as soon as I have something figured out, I realize I'm doing it wrong.

[master swing]

wow, how did I attack and insult you again? not my intention at all. goddamn this is a rough room. you think I attacked and insulted you? really? wow.

wow, tone you live in your own world,

anyway, check out this website: http://www.the-rms.com/

[Tone Deft]

fuck you pal. that's an attack, dipshit.

[master swing]

also be sure to check out this little episode: http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/220762/