Ableton for music production. PC vs Mac

[cenik11]

you'd also have to learn Mac OS

Mac OS is very easy to learn: I picked it up in a few days. Plus, the Apple website offers a number of resources to make the transition from PC to MAC a simple one

[leedsquietman]

I think the Mac laptops are better value than the MacPro, although still charging a premium. As awesome and powerful as a machine that is (the macpro octocore), you could custom build a PC with even better hardware for significantly less. I wish Apple would provide a low end Mac Pro, maybe one that doesn't require certified ECC ram, as their is a huge gap in their range between Imac on the consumer/semi pro end to the Mac Pro.

Good points about the bloatware included with some big box PC manufacturers, uninstalling this stuff or reformatting, is definately a good step to a streamlined system.

I don't think Bodhi's experience is necessary typical for all users. I can see why he would be delighted in his Mac if his personal situation really had improved as much as claimed, but there are probably ways the PC laptop could have been optimized which may have been overlooked, or perhaps there was a defect somewhere, because a Mac running a Core2Duo chip at the same rate, with the same RAM and harddrive will not perform twice as quick as an equivalent PC under typical conditions. There could even be instances where the MacBook would be marginally less quick than it's competitor.

[mr.adl]

you'd also have to learn Mac OS

Mac OS is very easy to learn: I picked it up in a few days. Plus, the Apple website offers a number of resources to make the transition from PC to MAC a simple one

Can´t really confirm that. I am a long time windows user and i tried the switch. Mac OS is so weird and after 5 month trying i am really happy to go back to XP. Ordered a XP Laptop already and am going sell my Macbook soon. Boy do i look forward to that day my Laptop arrives!

[bodhi71]

Well the PC laptop that I had, had been through a lot.
It was imperative that I get a new computer.
The PC was optimized but all things being equal, it was seriously hurting.
I am not saying PC or Mac, What I am saying is that going to Mac has been a very pleasant experience,
so much so that anyone who has never had the opportunity to try one, should.
Up until I bought one, I only saw one Mac in my life.
My neighbor although a PC guru couldn't help me make my PC any better, and he was willing to help build one for me,
I just didn't feel like chasing down all the drivers, components, ect.
I was spending more time to my PC NOT writing music, which is what it is all about for me.
So. As far as PC vs MAC, who cares.
I personally have found a machine where the minimum is required of me,
as long as that is the case I think it will be Mac for me.

[hoffman2k]

For those of you who state "you can get any PC to work with a little work". You do conveniently leave out that there are similarly specced laptops that can't even run a Tascam 122l or Toneport UX1 without clicking all over the place.

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

It came with windows vista pre-installed and I swear it was running slower than Win 98.
It also had this mcaffee thing running that added an extra 2 minutes to opening any application.
The soundcards stutter all over the place in Live. With or without Asio.

So a little work you say.. I go thru the lengths, studying up on optimizing vista. That did fuck all in regards getting the audiocards to work.
So I installed windows 7. Same problem.
So I installed XP. Now the laptop is running fast, but still the same problem.
Oh and I had to hack the bios cause XP doesn't like SATA. Not to mention installing 12 drivers to get the laptop working.

Since the guy went to possibly the worst retailer in town, he's not getting a refund. So its sticking with the laptop or selling it and loosing a few hundred euros.
He eventually went with a soundcard that did work. Though he's still on XP and not having vista on it actually voids his warranty.

It just makes me wonder. As somebody able to write the odd application, am I really too stupid to expect a PC to work out of the box? Too stupid to set it up?
On my mac I never had a piece of hardware that took longer than 5 minutes to get running.
I spent 12 hours on that laptop with no success. With reports of people having it working and not working at the same time. Lots of complaints. No solutions.

I really am not having a go at PC's here. But you gotta admit, you pc users ignore a lot of crap or get so used to it that it seems normal.
If i open 3 or 4 applications at once on a PC, the owner looks at me like I'm trying to demolish his computer. 5 minutes later everything will be opened.
On my mac, the icon bounces once or twice and apps are open.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?
On Mac I just have to do a reinstall so I get rid of 6gb of useless printer drivers. That is it.

[twisted-space]

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

Acer Aspire or Dell Inspiron.
I think that if your buying any computer for audio work you need to do a little research first. I wonder how many bought a unibody macbook expecting it to have firewire?
You can get some great deals with a pc buy doing some homework and choosing carefully, for example I have a dell xps M1530 that has similar/better specs and performance than the 2.53 Ghz macbook pro for less than the price of a 2.2 Ghz macbook (when I bought it). And it'll run OSX if I really want it to, though I'm more than happy running windows 7 on it.

Plenty of people have problems on both platforms. Plenty of people make music on both platforms. Choose whichever you know best/feel most comfortable with/can afford, either can work well.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?

None, Install os, install a couple of drivers, install live, have fun. Simple.

If you have to wait 5 min for a machine to open 4 or 5 apps then its a crap machine OR it's infected with crap.

[Spindrift]

One also have to keep in mind that with PC you have very varying quality depending on which machine you choose.
Nowadays a Mac is a PC if you look at the hardware, but it is high-end machines using quality components.
I know many people that think that they need for example a Core 2 Duo with 2.0GHz+, 2GB RAM and 320GB HD, and then they set out to find the cheapest machine with those specs. Then when they find a machine for a few 100 € they think it's a great deal, but in reality it's just that it's using really cheap crappy components that will compromise performance and reliability.
But if you look at quality PC's, there is certainly no basis for claims that Macs should be better performing or more reliable.

MacBooks did use to be acceptable value until recently, but now prices on hardware have gone down and Apple have not followed that trend.
Today you get a PC with same specification and same quality components as a MacBook for somewhere around 60% of the cost.
Some people think it's worth it because they prefer OSX, want the multitouch pad or really like the design. That's all subjective properties and if you think it's worth the premium or not will be based on personal preference.
But from a hardware perspective they are currently seriously overpriced.

And due to the limited choices you have with a Mac the price difference can be really extreme.
For example I need an ExpressCard in a laptop, and then the only option is the 17" MBP. But infact for my needs a MPB 17" would not offer me any advantages over a DELL studio 15 which cost 25% of a MPB 17", rather the opposite since 17" becomes bulkier than I would like.

[bodhi71]

For those of you who state "you can get any PC to work with a little work". You do conveniently leave out that there are similarly specced laptops that can't even run a Tascam 122l or Toneport UX1 without clicking all over the place.

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

It came with windows vista pre-installed and I swear it was running slower than Win 98.
It also had this mcaffee thing running that added an extra 2 minutes to opening any application.
The soundcards stutter all over the place in Live. With or without Asio.

So a little work you say.. I go thru the lengths, studying up on optimizing vista. That did fuck all in regards getting the audiocards to work.
So I installed windows 7. Same problem.
So I installed XP. Now the laptop is running fast, but still the same problem.
Oh and I had to hack the bios cause XP doesn't like SATA. Not to mention installing 12 drivers to get the laptop working.

Since the guy went to possibly the worst retailer in town, he's not getting a refund. So its sticking with the laptop or selling it and loosing a few hundred euros.
He eventually went with a soundcard that did work. Though he's still on XP and not having vista on it actually voids his warranty.

It just makes me wonder. As somebody able to write the odd application, am I really too stupid to expect a PC to work out of the box? Too stupid to set it up?
On my mac I never had a piece of hardware that took longer than 5 minutes to get running.
I spent 12 hours on that laptop with no success. With reports of people having it working and not working at the same time. Lots of complaints. No solutions.

I really am not having a go at PC's here. But you gotta admit, you pc users ignore a lot of crap or get so used to it that it seems normal.
If i open 3 or 4 applications at once on a PC, the owner looks at me like I'm trying to demolish his computer. 5 minutes later everything will be opened.
On my mac, the icon bounces once or twice and apps are open.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?
On Mac I just have to do a reinstall so I get rid of 6gb of useless printer drivers. That is it.

I think this is so well stated WHY I found MAC so inspired.
I read this and really began to fully realize how bothersome PCs are.
I cannot remember how many times I wanted to bang my head against the wall because of all the stupid crap, my PC would do.
Are MACs overpriced, not really. Right out of the box, this thing screamed, for music I thought the 5400 rpm hard drive was going to be too slow. I am totally amazed how strong and reliable it is.
I will be running my MBP 17" for the next 5-7 years before I think of changing to a new one, maybe 10 years if I am lucky.

[hoffman2k]

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

Acer Aspire or Dell Inspiron.
I think that if your buying any computer for audio work you need to do a little research first. I wonder how many bought a unibody macbook expecting it to have firewire?
You can get some great deals with a pc buy doing some homework and choosing carefully, for example I have a dell xps M1530 that has similar/better specs and performance than the 2.53 Ghz macbook pro for less than the price of a 2.2 Ghz macbook (when I bought it). And it'll run OSX if I really want it to, though I'm more than happy running windows 7 on it.

Plenty of people have problems on both platforms. Plenty of people make music on both platforms. Choose whichever you know best/feel most comfortable with/can afford, either can work well.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?

None, Install os, install a couple of drivers, install live, have fun. Simple.

If you have to wait 5 min for a machine to open 4 or 5 apps then its a crap machine OR it's infected with crap.

Its an Aspire 6530.
I totally agree one should do research before buying a computer.
However, as you sort say yourself. The only thing to check for with a mac is if it has firewire (if you need it). For finding a PC, you actually need to find a dedicated up to date buyers guide.
Sure you can ask a PC user, but even you would claim a dell will run OSX without problems.

How can a computer be infected coming right out of the factory and never have been online anyway?
And "a couple of drivers" is a serious understatement. There's the modem, bluetooth, wifi, 2 or 3 trackpad drivers, some launch thingamajig, GFX card, Audio ports, usb ports and so on.. A driver for each individual part of the laptop.

[hoffman2k]

For those of you who state "you can get any PC to work with a little work". You do conveniently leave out that there are similarly specced laptops that can't even run a Tascam 122l or Toneport UX1 without clicking all over the place.

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

It came with windows vista pre-installed and I swear it was running slower than Win 98.
It also had this mcaffee thing running that added an extra 2 minutes to opening any application.
The soundcards stutter all over the place in Live. With or without Asio.

So a little work you say.. I go thru the lengths, studying up on optimizing vista. That did fuck all in regards getting the audiocards to work.
So I installed windows 7. Same problem.
So I installed XP. Now the laptop is running fast, but still the same problem.
Oh and I had to hack the bios cause XP doesn't like SATA. Not to mention installing 12 drivers to get the laptop working.

Since the guy went to possibly the worst retailer in town, he's not getting a refund. So its sticking with the laptop or selling it and loosing a few hundred euros.
He eventually went with a soundcard that did work. Though he's still on XP and not having vista on it actually voids his warranty.

It just makes me wonder. As somebody able to write the odd application, am I really too stupid to expect a PC to work out of the box? Too stupid to set it up?
On my mac I never had a piece of hardware that took longer than 5 minutes to get running.
I spent 12 hours on that laptop with no success. With reports of people having it working and not working at the same time. Lots of complaints. No solutions.

I really am not having a go at PC's here. But you gotta admit, you pc users ignore a lot of crap or get so used to it that it seems normal.
If i open 3 or 4 applications at once on a PC, the owner looks at me like I'm trying to demolish his computer. 5 minutes later everything will be opened.
On my mac, the icon bounces once or twice and apps are open.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?
On Mac I just have to do a reinstall so I get rid of 6gb of useless printer drivers. That is it.

I think this is so well stated WHY I found MAC so inspired.
I read this and really began to fully realize how bothersome PCs are.
I cannot remember how many times I wanted to bang my head against the wall because of all the stupid crap, my PC would do.
Are MACs overpriced, not really. Right out of the box, this thing screamed, for music I thought the 5400 rpm hard drive was going to be too slow. I am totally amazed how strong and reliable it is.
I will be running my MBP 17" for the next 5-7 years before I think of changing to a new one, maybe 10 years if I am lucky.

Yeah the price.. My mate got the 750€ laptop which looked like a good deal. Paid another 50€ to get the store to figure out why his soundcard didn't work. Paid me 50€ to see if I could figure it out and eventually splashed down another few hundred euros for a soundcard that worked on his system. After he got some advice in a pro-audio shop.
That is actually the kicker.. A Tascam and Line 6 soundcard didn't work. But an NI branded soundcard does seem to work. :facepalm:

[3dot...]

yes... it's important to know what chipsets you get in PC laptops..
this is the 'edge' that Apple has got...HW+SW...
in that respect a MAC is a more 'end-user friendly'...
where a PC would be more of 'developer friendly'...

I think Apple's way is more professional...
we are end users... we need to know absolutely the limits of our gear.
with PCs it's trial and error...
MACs... you know what you get right out the box.

but...
for people who don't mind doing the occasional tweak to get more power for less $$$...
PCs are very cool.

on the matter of hardware...MACs have a beautiful design...
they're made of the best materials and are considered 'high-end'...
(maybe it's the weight...and the big pad ?! I dunno)
so how come I hear of way more MACs going back to the shop than PCs...

[adventurepants_]

For those of you who state "you can get any PC to work with a little work". You do conveniently leave out that there are similarly specced laptops that can't even run a Tascam 122l or Toneport UX1 without clicking all over the place.

An impatient friend of mine bought an Acer inspiron 6530. Because on paper it looked like a nice laptop and relatively cheap.

It came with windows vista pre-installed and I swear it was running slower than Win 98.
It also had this mcaffee thing running that added an extra 2 minutes to opening any application.
The soundcards stutter all over the place in Live. With or without Asio.

So a little work you say.. I go thru the lengths, studying up on optimizing vista. That did fuck all in regards getting the audiocards to work.
So I installed windows 7. Same problem.
So I installed XP. Now the laptop is running fast, but still the same problem.
Oh and I had to hack the bios cause XP doesn't like SATA. Not to mention installing 12 drivers to get the laptop working.

Since the guy went to possibly the worst retailer in town, he's not getting a refund. So its sticking with the laptop or selling it and loosing a few hundred euros.
He eventually went with a soundcard that did work. Though he's still on XP and not having vista on it actually voids his warranty.

It just makes me wonder. As somebody able to write the odd application, am I really too stupid to expect a PC to work out of the box? Too stupid to set it up?
On my mac I never had a piece of hardware that took longer than 5 minutes to get running.
I spent 12 hours on that laptop with no success. With reports of people having it working and not working at the same time. Lots of complaints. No solutions.

I really am not having a go at PC's here. But you gotta admit, you pc users ignore a lot of crap or get so used to it that it seems normal.
If i open 3 or 4 applications at once on a PC, the owner looks at me like I'm trying to demolish his computer. 5 minutes later everything will be opened.
On my mac, the icon bounces once or twice and apps are open.

How much optimization is needed to get any properly specced laptop to run properly?
On Mac I just have to do a reinstall so I get rid of 6gb of useless printer drivers. That is it.

I think this is so well stated WHY I found MAC so inspired.
I read this and really began to fully realize how bothersome PCs are.
I cannot remember how many times I wanted to bang my head against the wall because of all the stupid crap, my PC would do.
Are MACs overpriced, not really. Right out of the box, this thing screamed, for music I thought the 5400 rpm hard drive was going to be too slow. I am totally amazed how strong and reliable it is.
I will be running my MBP 17" for the next 5-7 years before I think of changing to a new one, maybe 10 years if I am lucky.

Yeah the price.. My mate got the 750€ laptop which looked like a good deal. Paid another 50€ to get the store to figure out why his soundcard didn't work. Paid me 50€ to see if I could figure it out and eventually splashed down another few hundred euros for a soundcard that worked on his system. After he got some advice in a pro-audio shop.
That is actually the kicker.. A Tascam and Line 6 soundcard didn't work. But an NI branded soundcard does seem to work. :facepalm:

honestly, it doesnt sound like you should be charging anything to fix PCs. It shouldnt take anywhere near that length of time, without being able to produce a definitive diagnosis (ie exactly where the bottleneck is, what chipset/driver exactly was at fault).

Changing a BIOS setting doesnt count as hacking btw.

[leedsquietman]

I don't want to seem facetious here, because there is certainly very much truth in saying research what you buy, but Toneports and Tascam interfaces are allegedly notoriously bad, mostly for their PC drivers rather than anything else. If the drivers are poor, it won't matter how blazing fast your CPU and specs are.

And if you like MOTU gear, MOTU definately write better mac osx drivers (unsurprising given their support of the Mac platform and the fact that their Digital Performer DAW is Mac only, as is the Audio Desk software they include with their interfaces). Another interface with allegedly poor PC drivers is the Lexicon Omega.

Firewire is a problem all the way around - PC manufacturers are going with ultra cheap solutions of integrated Express Card / SD Card / Firewire such as Ricoh and now the ultimate cheap and nasty O2 controllers, so although they have a mini FW400 port, the performance is severely compromised. Apple not including them in the new Macbooks indicates to me a shift away from firewire, which is unfortunate as the best FW interfaces running under a good FW chipset can be awesome, and the industry is slow to react, although RME are leading the way with their Fireface UC, a USB 2.0 interface capable of ultra low latency. It will also come with a wallet busting RME price for the quality... although the Edirol UA25, EMU 0404 USB and Native INstrument Audio Kontrol 1 are more reasonably priced and offer good to excellent performance also, so long as you don't need a lot of I/O.

[hoffman2k]

honestly, it doesnt sound like you should be charging anything to fix PCs. It shouldnt take anywhere near that length of time, without being able to produce a definitive diagnosis (ie exactly where the bottleneck is, what chipset/driver exactly was at fault).

Changing a BIOS setting doesnt count as hacking btw.

Well he offered, I didn't take but the store did twice. The point was, in the end he could have spent the same money on a more expensive computer, but one that worked. It was an expensive lesson.

@leedsquietman

He doesn't have internet. His only criteria was "DDR3 is good!". And he didn't wait to seek advice instead of buying the first laptop at literally the first store he encountered.
I wouldn't have advised him those soundcards either. Especially not one made by NI.

The only thing I'm disputing here is that Pc's just work out of the box. You need to research what you buy, you need to know how the individual components act with all your peripherals. You need to find every option for every notice that pops up on a default windows install and then come the drivers...

And as poor as the toneports and tascams may be. They worked on his desktop PC, they work on my mac and they work on a studio PC. But both fail on an Acer laptop but an NI soundcard works? You can see where the confusion sets in.

Anyway. I'll withdraw from this thread because this is getting close to a PC bashing.
I didn't buy the laptop and after this experience I'm definitely ain't buying one soon.
I wanted one for doing audio development in windows, but from a similar discussion on CDM I learned a macbook pro will run windows fine.

[adventurepants_]

honestly, it doesnt sound like you should be charging anything to fix PCs. It shouldnt take anywhere near that length of time, without being able to produce a definitive diagnosis (ie exactly where the bottleneck is, what chipset/driver exactly was at fault).

Changing a BIOS setting doesnt count as hacking btw.

Well he offered, I didn't take but the store did twice. The point was, in the end he could have spent the same money on a more expensive computer, but one that worked. It was an expensive lesson.

@leedsquietman

He doesn't have internet. His only criteria was "DDR3 is good!". And he didn't wait to seek advice instead of buying the first laptop at literally the first store he encountered.
I wouldn't have advised him those soundcards either. Especially not one made by NI.

The only thing I'm disputing here is that Pc's just work out of the box. You need to research what you buy, you need to know how the individual components act with all your peripherals. You need to find every option for every notice that pops up on a default windows install and then come the drivers...

And as poor as the toneports and tascams may be. They worked on his desktop PC, they work on my mac and they work on a studio PC. But both fail on an Acer laptop but an NI soundcard works? You can see where the confusion sets in.

Anyway. I'll withdraw from this thread because this is getting close to a PC bashing.
I didn't buy the laptop and after this experience I'm definitely ain't buying one soon.
I wanted one for doing audio development in windows, but from a similar discussion on CDM I learned a macbook pro will run windows fine.

my apologies. I thought you were saying that you took money and still didnt fix it. Thats just something that really irritates me and leaves people with a bad impression about PCs. Theres plenty of dodgy "experts" who take money, dont know what theyre doing and give the customer back a poorly working computer.

I dont think anyone is trying to argue the point that most PCs work great out of the box. Almost none of them do!