ot : RACISM...

[DrXparaMental]

good or bad i can assure you it will cost the government way more than 10.4 billion a year to try to find and kick them all out. And then what? Like i said, what happens to those businesses that are reliant on these peoples near slave labor?


I'm sure not joining any revolution that thinks that illegal immigration is even close to the biggest problem we're facing.


also, how about this even before these huge bailouts: According to the Cato Institute, the U.S. federal government spent $92 billion on corporate welfare during fiscal year 2006. Recipients included Boeing, Xerox, IBM, Motorola, Dow Chemical, and General Electric.

that's 9 times what was spent on illegals, where's your outrage??? Go ahead and tell me about all of the great things those companies are doing to enhance our economy, how many jobs they provide, and how that money trickles down. Then take a look at what the fuck is really going on around you. If that philosophy worked, we wouldn't be in the pile of shit we're in right now.



the bottom line, in my opinion these illegal immigrants are just people who are going through harder times than you or I and are trying to hustle to survive. Does it cost the taxpayers some money, sure. Is it a great evil in the world? Hardly. Especially when compared to all of the other things going on. Fix the bleeding axe wounds in our system and then we can talk about cleaning up these paper cuts.

when people act like illegal immigrants are bankrupting the country, they are either uninformed, willfully ignorant, or have another agenda.


.lm.

Dude, you exaggerate to beat the band. Can you substantiate ANYTHING you have stated? I did. I don't think you can. I really don't. So far, lots of hot air and rhetoric LM. Not much substance there kiddo.

Please quote where I indicated the country was being bankrupted by illegal immigrants or that I suggested "joining a revolution". Bet you can't, can you? No matter how you slice it, 10.4 billion dollars is a helluva lot (yep, that's right, it's an INSANE amount of money) more money than everyone that has ever contributed to this forum put together makes in a year most likely. Since it's just chump change in the big picture according to you, throw down slick.

You are throwing around numbers like you actually know something when in fact you don't appear to know shit. I had to supply you with the only facts present thus far. Show me the money sonny.How much good have the illegal mooches actually contributed in FACT, and not just your bullshit opinions.

All you are doing is feebly attempting to deemphasize the issue by making a case that the immigration problem is not the worst problem we face. When did I state that it was? Quit pretending that you can show everyone how the bailout cost more and is much more evil when you haven't exercised the academic wherewithal to put it in working context. Stating the fact doesn't mean shit. Put it in context and stop bitching for the sake of bitching. Again, shoe me the money. So far it's just a bunch of thumb to nose finger waving on your part. You talk about preaching to the choir, who you aiming the sermon ala bird at right now? Gotta do better than just sit on your pillow smoking dope and listening to old records here kiddo. If you aren't going to do anything, have no plan, can't supply any real substantiation, what do you have other than OPINION and HOT AIR at this point? It's all just commentary based on your feelings.

It wouldn't cost shit to get the immigration and illegal alien situation under control in the USA. That is unless you do it the liberal way and buy them a first class ticket home. Where you coming up with this bullshit? Show me some FACTS as I have shown you, or....

[Sage]

If you aren't going to do anything, have no plan, can't supply any real substantiation, what do you have other than OPINION and HOT AIR at this point? It's all just commentary based on your feelings.

So are you basing all this on your feelings. If illegal immigration is costing American tax payers $10.4 billion, it's actually costing you nothing in reality!

Look at how much has been spent on the illegal war in Iraq for a start, $10.4 billion wouldn't have lasted any more than a month.


It's like people in the UK bitching about the royal family and how taxpayer's money goes on them, at most it costs the tax payer less than 50p each, so if we didn't the royal family, i'd be a whole chocolate bar better off every year...

[Homebelly]

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

I must admit, this article was quite convincing.
So, i spent an hour or so of my Saturday morning in bed with toast and a cup of coffee time doing a bit of investigation into the The Center for Immigration Studies. Right off the bat i found it has connections to FAIR, from there we go to the "Sierra Club" and John Tanton. Superficially these are pretty normal NPO's. until we get to the "Pioneer fund" connection, then we get into the messy area of eugenics and the idea of IQ variation between races and their conclusion that ,,, surprise, surprise,, suggests white people are genetically predisposed to be intellectually more evolved that people of other races.

So...
Alls i'm saying is, if you have a point to make, and want to back it up some some kind of academic research, and your in a thread that was started as a discussion on racism, its probably not a good idea to use information published on a site that has ties to organizations that advocate white supremacist and racial purity type ideals.

[starving student]

good or bad i can assure you it will cost the government way more than 10.4 billion a year to try to find and kick them all out. And then what? Like i said, what happens to those businesses that are reliant on these peoples near slave labor?


I'm sure not joining any revolution that thinks that illegal immigration is even close to the biggest problem we're facing.


also, how about this even before these huge bailouts: According to the Cato Institute, the U.S. federal government spent $92 billion on corporate welfare during fiscal year 2006. Recipients included Boeing, Xerox, IBM, Motorola, Dow Chemical, and General Electric.

that's 9 times what was spent on illegals, where's your outrage??? Go ahead and tell me about all of the great things those companies are doing to enhance our economy, how many jobs they provide, and how that money trickles down. Then take a look at what the fuck is really going on around you. If that philosophy worked, we wouldn't be in the pile of shit we're in right now.



the bottom line, in my opinion these illegal immigrants are just people who are going through harder times than you or I and are trying to hustle to survive. Does it cost the taxpayers some money, sure. Is it a great evil in the world? Hardly. Especially when compared to all of the other things going on. Fix the bleeding axe wounds in our system and then we can talk about cleaning up these paper cuts.

when people act like illegal immigrants are bankrupting the country, they are either uninformed, willfully ignorant, or have another agenda.


.lm.

Dude, you exaggerate to beat the band. Can you substantiate ANYTHING you have stated? I did. I don't think you can. I really don't. So far, lots of hot air and rhetoric LM. Not much substance there kiddo.

Please quote where I indicated the country was being bankrupted by illegal immigrants or that I suggested "joining a revolution". Bet you can't, can you? No matter how you slice it, 10.4 billion dollars is a helluva lot (yep, that's right, it's an INSANE amount of money) more money than everyone that has ever contributed to this forum put together makes in a year most likely. Since it's just chump change in the big picture according to you, throw down slick.

You are throwing around numbers like you actually know something when in fact you don't appear to know shit. I had to supply you with the only facts present thus far. Show me the money sonny.How much good have the illegal mooches actually contributed in FACT, and not just your bullshit opinions.

All you are doing is feebly attempting to deemphasize the issue by making a case that the immigration problem is not the worst problem we face. When did I state that it was? Quit pretending that you can show everyone how the bailout cost more and is much more evil when you haven't exercised the academic wherewithal to put it in working context. Stating the fact doesn't mean shit. Put it in context and stop bitching for the sake of bitching. Again, shoe me the money. So far it's just a bunch of thumb to nose finger waving on your part. You talk about preaching to the choir, who you aiming the sermon ala bird at right now? Gotta do better than just sit on your pillow smoking dope and listening to old records here kiddo. If you aren't going to do anything, have no plan, can't supply any real substantiation, what do you have other than OPINION and HOT AIR at this point? It's all just commentary based on your feelings.

It wouldn't cost shit to get the immigration and illegal alien situation under control in the USA. That is unless you do it the liberal way and buy them a first class ticket home. Where you coming up with this bullshit? Show me some FACTS as I have shown you, or....

this isn't true Doc, he was cutting through resistance by giving your own supported facts whether accurate or not the benefit of the doubt and basing a counter argument on them, the thinking is that a reasonable person wouldn't be mad at their own facts iow based on your facts the imigration is small peanuts compared to the big problems we are facing financialy and this is a financial debate now because you have been basing your angst about the imigration issue on mostly if not all about the financial burnden they represent. Lm is simply asking you to scream louder at larger financial burdens because not to do so makes it look like you have another agenda. I'm intrested in what you have to say about the larger financial burndens that demand more of a imediate response in our society as well. this is not a trick question, is it about the money or are you secretly hiding another reason that's more important to you. btw my post here is not about mudlsinging it's about what each of our real issues are and if yours is money then the argument that LM is raising with you should be of great intrest. maybe you thought that illegals caused the majority of financial burnden and have them at the top of your list of problems to solve, maybe now you are intrested in looking closer and seeing that there are much worse financial burndens that deserve our anger and attention first, you know like a doctor making sure that vital organs are ok before minor scrapes and bruises, I'd like to know your thoughts too

[Tone Deft]

[starving student]

and just to let you/anybody know before the detractors start to pile on even more, I don't support illegal imigration, I don't give a fuck about money either. the reason I don't support illegal imigration is because what matters to me is equality and the imigration situation is not one of equality, not in america, I believe as humans that we don't have the right to tell any other human being where on earth to go it's as simple as that, but if you are going to build and abuse your wealth and power and make armies to keep people in or out it should be equal, either everyone can be illegal here not just latinos, or everyone should be kept out. I cannot tolerate in-equality no matter what it's about.

[Tone Deft]

I believe as humans that we don't have the right to tell any other human being where on earth to go it's as simple as that, but if you are going to build and abuse your wealth and power and make armies to keep people in or out it should be equal, either everyone can be illegal here not just latinos, or everyone should be kept out. I cannot tolerate in-equality no matter what it's about.

oh come on... do you lock your doors at night?

[starving student]

I believe as humans that we don't have the right to tell any other human being where on earth to go it's as simple as that, but if you are going to build and abuse your wealth and power and make armies to keep people in or out it should be equal, either everyone can be illegal here not just latinos, or everyone should be kept out. I cannot tolerate in-equality no matter what it's about.

oh come on... do you lock your doors at night?

i'm serious, people act like in-equality is some necessary ingredient for some retarded pot pie they're baking but i feel otherwise, if you want to do the right thing and make things better for all of our environments that's beautiful I'm right there with you, but if you fuck everything up I can roll with those punches as well but do it equally, see it's obvious that man is often times not headed in the right direction ok I get it, we are very self destructive but either we all go to heaven or we all go to hell 3 musketeer style.

[leisuremuffin]

a whole lot of crazy bullshit

wow man, what are you even talking about now?



which facts do you want substantiated? here's how much tax we collected fiscal year 07:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,, ... 86,00.html

that's this much money:
2,691,538,000,000

you're supposed 10 billion, which is hardly fact, by the way, but i'll accept it as an accurate estimation for this purpose:

10,000,000,000

the percentage is %0.37

so you're getting your panties in a bunch about 0.37 percent of our tax revenue being wasted?


Are these facts enough for you? Are you satisfied now that you've seen a link to irs.gov, and put the argument in even more plain language?





i gave you the source of my other information about corporate welfare right in the statement but here's a link for you, buddy:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230

this is at least as close to facts as your cis.org link.


the amount spent on the bailouts are known to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, i'll let you do the math on your own like i did, pal.


So I haven't provided any facts but you have? What? how do you figure?


why i made any mention of a revolution? here's why, forgetful:

but still, is it a good thing, or is it a bad thing? That's 10.4 billion we could do without. And yes, as I already stated, revolution is the ONLY real answer. What do we do about it?

I'm really not sure where else to go with this, man, we have different view on this. I say that really the immigration problem is trivial and without any easy solution (can't just kick em out but good luck trying, i promise you it'll cost more than leaving them alone, and if you make em legal they no longer serve the purpose that unscrupulous businesses want them for, ie why they come here anyway, and they end up costing us even more).

you're saying it's a lot of money and we need to do something about it. like what anyway? Come one, what's your real problem with these illegal immigrants?



.lm.

[starving student]

^^ that ain't just tofu in his veins you bastards

[Tone Deft]

student - dunno man, you lost me. I take from that we're all in the same boat together. the statement "if you fuck everything up I can roll with those punches as well but do it equally" I agree with in the sense that I'm OK paying higher taxes for services that take care of people, an issue that we could not get across to Bush.

FWIW I'm on the side to blame the money chasers that abuse cheap labor. it's supply and demand for labor. add to that the myth of 'trickle down economics.' people are real, governments, economies and laws are artificial manmade entities that come second.

[starving student]

student - dunno man, you lost me. I take from that we're all in the same boat together. the statement "if you fuck everything up I can roll with those punches as well but do it equally" I agree with in the sense that I'm OK paying higher taxes for services that take care of people, an issue that we could not get across to Bush.

FWIW I'm on the side to blame the money chasers that abuse cheap labor. it's supply and demand for labor. add to that the myth of 'trickle down economics.' people are real, governments, economies and laws are artificial manmade entities that come second.

you're not lost you're spot on, people are real and it's up to us really to change things for the better, but man it seems like our faith in our own selves is tested daily, honestly it gets old and equality is the best I can hope for under current circumstances whatever those circumstances may be.

[Tone Deft]

I know this will be met with opposition, but take a moment and reflect on the fact we just went from Bush in the White House to Obama. the whole world can appreciate that.


fucking-a.



then again, California passed prop 8, which is my own local buzz kill. shit, we're behind Iowa in terms of social evolution. we'll get there, LDS be damned.

[sublimelobc]

$10,400,000,000 = The US taxpayer cost per year for hosting brown skinned humans living here illegally.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


$100,000,000,000 = The US taxpayer cost per year for the most wealthy US citizens to evade paying taxes by holding their assets in offshore accounts and not being held accountable for their tax liability. (I'm guessing few of this bunch would be brown skinned)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121624391105859731.html


DrXparaMental- This quick search took me about a minute, this should provide you with 10 times the anger that illegals living here give you.....feel free to vent here on the forum, and I'm sure you will find little opposition to spending your energy in such fashion. Why? Well, if you don't know by now, you'll probably never know.

Honestly, can you really say that the "cost to the taxpayer" is your only motivation here? If so, then obviously your time would be much better spent going after bigger fish.

You keep trying to make the point that this is an issue of immigrants entering illegally.....(you completely ignore the fact that our ancestors all entered with virtually no regulation, and that it's all but impossible for somebody to legally enter the US to find a better life now) Ok, regardless of the aforementioned logical argument, you still think that your issue is only about the fact that Pedro down the road crossed the border illegally? Do you realize that at different times in the past, the US government has granted amnesty to people who entered into the country illegally? If there was a migrant worker program that allowed foreign workers to enter legally into the country, pay taxes and contribute to society...do you honestly think that we would still have people risking their lives to enter into the country illegally?

Why did the pilgrims leave Europe? To seek a better life, more opportunities and freedom and less oppression by government, right? When the 13 former british colonies fought for independence and unjust taxation without representation did they do so against the law of the land? Hell yeah they did, and why?...because what is current "law" at any given time doesn't mean that it is for the benefit of the citizens. Laws can change, they OFTEN do....especially laws concerning issues such as immigration....so why is this issue seems to be so obviously NOT about the fact that people are breaking a law and entering illegally into the US and costing the taxpayers 10 billion a year, rather this seems to be an issue about brown men "robbing you" of 10 billion dollars a year while the richest americans that are probably mostly white rob you 10 times that much a year by evading taxes does little to stir you up. (Hell, they don't even offer you a chance for the most beautiful landscaping in the neighborhood and a Saturday free of clipping the lawn)

And one more point about breaking the law, have you ever sparked a J DrX? Have you ever done anything illegal, or are you a model citizen? Think about the big picture here, and not just how to get rid of the funny speaking family down the road.

[starving student]

I know this will be met with opposition, but take a moment and reflect on the fact we just went from Bush in the White House to Obama. the whole world can appreciate that.


fucking-a.



then again, California passed prop 8, which is my own local buzz kill. shit, we're behind Iowa in terms of social evolution. we'll get there, LDS be damned.

maybe this'll be meant with even more opposition but I've been thinking lately that the actual point we are at is not the lofty top we portray ie:obama but the lowliest of denominators ie: the prison system, I think our prisons societies are the accurrate fucked-up-o-meter to judge how far we've really come
and they are drowning in syrupy levels upon levels of division.