Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Spikee
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by Spikee » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:10 pm

andrew_ wrote:So I'm trying to get rid of my pirated software, which includes the copy of Wavelab I've been using to master my tracks.

So now as I'm considering either buying it or another host app, I'm beginning to wonder if there's any need. If I use the exact same plugins on the master channel in Ableton, it shouldn't make a difference right?
The only thing that I find concerning is Ableton's CPU inefficiencies. I've been playing around heavily with Logic over the past 2 months and when I compare the 2 DAWs side by side Logic uses only a fraction of the resources that Ableton does. Will you have enough CPU left over for some complex mastering software, even after freezing tracks? If so then great, go for it.

As far as the job you'll do, it's absolutely true that nothing beats a professional to master your stuff. But that costs money and many artists don't always have a stack that they can sink on the cost of mastering. If that holds true for you then there are a few things you can do to create an adequate mix. A couple of tricks would be to stand in the corner of your room to gauge exactly how bass-heavy you've gone. Another is to listen to your mix on any and every sound source you can muster before committing to it. Another would be to get a good pair of flat-response headphones so you can cut the wierd and counter-intuitive acoustics of your space out of the mix. And mix at low volume to avoid ear fatigue and to make sure that your highs cut through bass at low levels. No, there's no substitute for a professional but then again, look at all of the lo-fi artists that get clamored over on Pitchfork -- if those artists get fans by having recordings that sound like they were recorded straight to a cheap cassette, then surely a final mixdown that's had a lot of time and effort could suffice.

mdb
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by mdb » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:19 am

NO! :evil: Ableton is not a sufficient application to master audio.


All of you clowns need to stop by the website -- > http://src.infinitewave.ca/ and see what ableton is actually doing to your precious audio. Its not good, Especially when theres no niquist filter on your transitions test. Thats fuckin outragous and no person in there right mind who knows anything about mastering audio would even consider mastering audio on ableton. 8O

This is exactly what people are hearing when they say abletons sound quality sucks. Well heres the fuckin facts right here.. -- > http://src.infinitewave.ca/
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33tetragammon
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by 33tetragammon » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:32 am

mdb wrote:NO! :evil: Ableton is not a sufficient application to master audio.


All of you clowns need to stop by the website -- > http://src.infinitewave.ca/ and see what ableton is actually doing to your precious audio. Its not good, Especially when theres no niquist filter on your transitions test. Thats fuckin outragous and no person in there right mind who knows anything about mastering audio would even consider mastering audio on ableton. 8O

This is exactly what people are hearing when they say abletons sound quality sucks. Well heres the fuckin facts right here.. -- > http://src.infinitewave.ca/
sure,i'll switch to PROTOOLS then,as soon as it will get a sessionview+support for the apc-40(which i guess will NEVER happen!). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

all "clowning" aside,what am i seeing on that graph anyway?a little explanation might help....

thanks!

Pathos V2
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by Pathos V2 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:20 am

Yes, you can master with Ableton Live, it is however not an optimal solution.

Plug-Ins-> there will be no difference playing back an unchanged .wav (no warp, no SRC) thru the same chain of mastering plugs compared to other applications.

SRC Argument-> true, beside the graphics seeming more dramatic than the audible effect anyway, Lives SRC is optimized for realtime work, so you can throw samples with different samplerates into the arrangement quickly and easily. That one can reach better offline results is no miracle and also in the Live manual (audio engine fact-sheet).

For me Live is not optimal for mastering because:

Basic Audioediting only
No burning and Index/CD-Data-Function included
Not optimized Workflow for mastering

But Live´s sound-engine would at no point be my concern.

Best

PV2

leedsquietman
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:15 pm

Live's sound engine is NO concern at all - coming from someone who uses Cubase, Logic and Protools on regular basis, I have no hesitation in mixing my Live projects in LIVE - stuff like warping is the only thing to watch out for and making sure hi quality is turned on.

What you can do to alleviate CPU load is to render your stereo mix and then master from that raw stereo file. This is how the majority of mastering sessions are conducted, either stereo file or stems (submixed groups, i.e. stereo drums, stereo guitars and synths, stereo vocals, stereo bass, stereo bvs, etc.).

Sample rate conversion is not even necessary if you recorded at 44.1 Khz. Where it is necessary, you can use other dedicated products if you're concerned, and Live 7 in high quality mode is actually not bad - there will always be some artifacts doing SRC, and besides looking at a graph never tells the story, use your EARS to judge ... This is why the infinite wave guy doesn't post AUDIO samples, and who's to say that those graphs are accurate anyway. We already had at least 2 threads I know proclaiming that you needed to be a very insecure muppet to allow that stuff to influence you.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

leedsquietman
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:23 pm

also - check out the 'graph' for Sadie and Pyramix - 2 of the widest used Mastering solutions on the planet ... have all the MEs and mastering studios chucked out their Sadies and Pyramixes ?? Big fat NO !!

I call BS on this whole exercise, this is also a test for a freaking sinewave - how many of you are producing an album with solo 1 Khz sinewaves on ... also, linear phase should produce less artifacts in 100% of situations, but I notice on several comparisons where minimum phase and linear phase are offered that the graph shows the opposite, so I have to question the accuracy and application of this - IMHO, just marketing hype and bull.

The Live example also does not say which warping mode was used, as we all know that effects audio quality.

I do recommend Voxengo's R8 Brain Pro though as an SRC, always have. The free version only SRCs 48 Khz to 44.1 (or vice versa) but is excellent if that's what you need, the Pro version will do up to 96 Khz.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

timothyallan
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Re: Is it reasonable to use Live as a plugin host for mastering?

Post by timothyallan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:00 pm

Live sound engine is fine for mastering, as long as you know what you are doing. i.e. no warp, 32 bit only etc.

Those charts that MDB is getting his panties in a knot over are SRC charts. IIRC even in Lives manual it recommends not doing SRC within live. Do all your plugin/automation mastering in Live and then export 32 bit to a dedicated SRC program, or use one on the master bus.

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