The way it works today is much like DRM protection on music and movies. It only prevents the actual paying customers from having an overall good experience. Those who pirate Ableton today don't have this problem. Because of this I find the current method of authorization deeply flawed (especially since those who actually purchase the software are afaik not at all inclined to actually share their licence with others). Running out of authorizations for your machine/machines becomes more and more common and I suggest a remedy for future updates and versions.
Why not scratch the system the way it works today, and apply the method of which iTunes is using to access your purchased material. At least the way it used to work when they sold DRM protected music. What method is that then? Well, you'd have, let's say 5 authorization slots, and you could choose yourself how you'd like to distribute them. In iTunes you can authorize up to five computers that can simultaneously access the DRM protected material purchased with your account. But, and this is the kicker, you can de-authorize one or all your computers if you need to free some up (let's say your computer crashes, you need to reinstall and re-autorize, there's no point for having one autorization slot beeing taken by the old installation that is now gone). This way, you always have access to your 5 authorization slots and I suggest you could authorize and de-autorize your copy of Live either from within a Live installation, or from your profile on http://www.ableton.com. And also a feature (like in iTunes), to de-authorize all current authorizations.
Anyone else agree?
// Jezper - (sitting here with a Live 8 Suite waiting for another authorization approval)
Authorization count: High.
New authorization method
New authorization method
Last edited by Airbase on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Long Live Live.
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Smellhound
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 3:36 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
- Contact:
Re: Authorization
+1!!!!!!
I have been so annoyed by faulty copy violation detections that I've been tempted to just used a pirated copy.
I have been so annoyed by faulty copy violation detections that I've been tempted to just used a pirated copy.
Re: New authorization method
fwiw I do not agree
I have had to contact Ableton twice about authorizations.
once was for Sampler only
once was for Live 8 while the initial bugs with sensiitvity to network configuration were happening. (I generally keep my music computer unplugged from ethernet, except for authorizing Live, or when reading files which are downloaded to other computers' shared folders)
in both cases it was resolved very quickly
plus now they have fully functional 14 day demo licenses, which probably handles the emergency situations (?) (i do not know if they have some hardware profile trickery to prevent consecutive demo licenses on the same machine)
also also there are some methods of preserving the authorization keys, via disk image cloning, etc. which might handle situations having to do with routine computer maintenance (reinstalling OS, etc.)
I have had to contact Ableton twice about authorizations.
once was for Sampler only
once was for Live 8 while the initial bugs with sensiitvity to network configuration were happening. (I generally keep my music computer unplugged from ethernet, except for authorizing Live, or when reading files which are downloaded to other computers' shared folders)
in both cases it was resolved very quickly
plus now they have fully functional 14 day demo licenses, which probably handles the emergency situations (?) (i do not know if they have some hardware profile trickery to prevent consecutive demo licenses on the same machine)
also also there are some methods of preserving the authorization keys, via disk image cloning, etc. which might handle situations having to do with routine computer maintenance (reinstalling OS, etc.)
Re: New authorization method
I don't think this suggestion would be much of a help, for several reasons.
It seems to me that right now what they do is have a fixed (but secret) number of authorization slots with no way to deauthorize except by asking customer service. If you use your last slot, the authorization server sends you email. If at that point you contact customer service and explain what is going on, my experience is that they will create another slot for you in case you need it in a hurry.
There are two problems with a deauthorization scheme.
First, such a scheme would become more complicated, not less, unless the limit on slots were made permanent, with no easy way to change it. If the limit were permanent, what would it be? Five is too big, because it would make it too easy for a few people to get together to share authorizations. So it would have to be small enough that sharing would be inconvenient in practice.
But that gives rise to the second problem: Sometimes, as has also happened to me, a computer dies so abruptly that there is no opportunity to deauthorize the software on it. So now how do you get it running on your new computer? When it happened to me, one vendor (not Ableton) refused to issue an additional authorization until I sent them a copy of the invoice for the new computer along with a credit-card receipt proving I had paid for it. Do you really want to have to do that with Ableton?
It seems to me that right now what they do is have a fixed (but secret) number of authorization slots with no way to deauthorize except by asking customer service. If you use your last slot, the authorization server sends you email. If at that point you contact customer service and explain what is going on, my experience is that they will create another slot for you in case you need it in a hurry.
There are two problems with a deauthorization scheme.
First, such a scheme would become more complicated, not less, unless the limit on slots were made permanent, with no easy way to change it. If the limit were permanent, what would it be? Five is too big, because it would make it too easy for a few people to get together to share authorizations. So it would have to be small enough that sharing would be inconvenient in practice.
But that gives rise to the second problem: Sometimes, as has also happened to me, a computer dies so abruptly that there is no opportunity to deauthorize the software on it. So now how do you get it running on your new computer? When it happened to me, one vendor (not Ableton) refused to issue an additional authorization until I sent them a copy of the invoice for the new computer along with a credit-card receipt proving I had paid for it. Do you really want to have to do that with Ableton?
Re: New authorization method
I am also a bit annoyed by authorization, although I did not have any problems with it. I think that copy
protections in most cases affect the loyal and paying customer in some negative way. But I don't think
that Ableton might not be nice to you when explaining them your issues, either.
Anyway, I also like the way how iTunes handles the authorizations. Five Slots would be too much for
Ableton, but the TWO you already have would be not. If you could handle them dynamically this would be
great! I am experimenting a lot with different operating systems on the same machine, and going from
XP to Vista and then Win7, and maybe switching even to 64-bit, and maybe going back from one to
another system because some driver is missing, and all this while using the other license on your laptop
- it would make you call Ableton everytime you change something!
I think there is a basic flaw in thinking. Buying software is about "being a legal user" - not about "being
able to use the software at all" - in most cases. Everybody knows that there are cracks of almost
everything out there, and fact is that lots of people are using them. So I'd claim a lot of people buying
licenses are doing so because they are just loyal and honest, or at least they don't want to be criminals.
They just want to be a legal user because they realize that it is not right to steal, and they also want to
support those guys putting a lot of effort into their software.
Ok, maybe there'd be some people saying: let's all put together and buy Ableton, so everybody (or at
least two people) could use it together - but again, this would not make you legal - so it is not a
satisfying solution. They could also use cracked copies, no difference...
Maybe there'd even be some people going like: hey! I see you bought Ableton! Can I have it, too? And I'd
say: NO, I bought it to be a legal user, and it was expensive! So if you want to become a legal user, get a
copy yourself and support the software you like! Why should I give away something that cost me a lot of
money for free, even making myself acting illegal? Even if it was a very close friend, I'd tell him to respect
me and not asking me to make my own license invalid by violating it.
I can only talk for myself, but I think it is unfair to steal the hard work of software developers trying to
make a living out of their passion. They are actually very highly skilled and talented people who deserve
that their software gets bought. All that a software developer (and I am one too) can hope for, is that
people become aware that they are actually stealing something, and that this is NOT right. And software
is LOTS of work, but the fact that it is just a virtual logical construct makes people think it is basically
worthless, so they don't feel ashamed of copying it.
I am pretty sure that people actually BUYING software are the LEAST ones who actually mess
around with the law - so it is pretty paradox that exactly this group of people gets disturbed with
restrictions...
Same with buying original CDs with annoying copy protections, or DVDs that contain unskippable
"COPYING IS ILLEGAL" - ads (yes I actually KNOW it's illegal, but WHY on earth do you tell ME?
I've actually PAID for this DVD, remember?)
Well, just my thoughts...
protections in most cases affect the loyal and paying customer in some negative way. But I don't think
that Ableton might not be nice to you when explaining them your issues, either.
Anyway, I also like the way how iTunes handles the authorizations. Five Slots would be too much for
Ableton, but the TWO you already have would be not. If you could handle them dynamically this would be
great! I am experimenting a lot with different operating systems on the same machine, and going from
XP to Vista and then Win7, and maybe switching even to 64-bit, and maybe going back from one to
another system because some driver is missing, and all this while using the other license on your laptop
- it would make you call Ableton everytime you change something!
I think there is a basic flaw in thinking. Buying software is about "being a legal user" - not about "being
able to use the software at all" - in most cases. Everybody knows that there are cracks of almost
everything out there, and fact is that lots of people are using them. So I'd claim a lot of people buying
licenses are doing so because they are just loyal and honest, or at least they don't want to be criminals.
They just want to be a legal user because they realize that it is not right to steal, and they also want to
support those guys putting a lot of effort into their software.
Ok, maybe there'd be some people saying: let's all put together and buy Ableton, so everybody (or at
least two people) could use it together - but again, this would not make you legal - so it is not a
satisfying solution. They could also use cracked copies, no difference...
Maybe there'd even be some people going like: hey! I see you bought Ableton! Can I have it, too? And I'd
say: NO, I bought it to be a legal user, and it was expensive! So if you want to become a legal user, get a
copy yourself and support the software you like! Why should I give away something that cost me a lot of
money for free, even making myself acting illegal? Even if it was a very close friend, I'd tell him to respect
me and not asking me to make my own license invalid by violating it.
I can only talk for myself, but I think it is unfair to steal the hard work of software developers trying to
make a living out of their passion. They are actually very highly skilled and talented people who deserve
that their software gets bought. All that a software developer (and I am one too) can hope for, is that
people become aware that they are actually stealing something, and that this is NOT right. And software
is LOTS of work, but the fact that it is just a virtual logical construct makes people think it is basically
worthless, so they don't feel ashamed of copying it.
I am pretty sure that people actually BUYING software are the LEAST ones who actually mess
around with the law - so it is pretty paradox that exactly this group of people gets disturbed with
restrictions...
Same with buying original CDs with annoying copy protections, or DVDs that contain unskippable
"COPYING IS ILLEGAL" - ads (yes I actually KNOW it's illegal, but WHY on earth do you tell ME?
I've actually PAID for this DVD, remember?)
Well, just my thoughts...
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davepermen
- Posts: 2198
- Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
- Location: Switzerland
- Contact:
Re: New authorization method
problem is, for itunes, that works well, as it's an online store. but ableton sees much use without being online ever. so image now, that i activate a pc for a studio, which never gets online again. then, i revert that activation online (or in the worst case, do it on that studio pc, and restore the image from just minutes ago, all then without network.
it would be a fully authorized copy without any way to be controlled by ableton.
and because they know that could be done (and i bet it will be done), they want to get you into contact to get additional license activation slots.
it would be a fully authorized copy without any way to be controlled by ableton.
and because they know that could be done (and i bet it will be done), they want to get you into contact to get additional license activation slots.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.
Re: New authorization method
Yes, that actually is a problem - which could only be handled if ableton checked your activation for your
specific machine on the server, going online on every startup, which is no solution either. Most studio PCs
are even not connected to internet.
So indeed, this would not be possible. But, as I said it is an issue of being legal - else you could also
install a cracked version on the studio-computer.
What I don't like is that there is a limitation of two installs at all - one should be able to install his copy
wherever he wants, as long as it is on the OWN machines, and not used at the same time (which is also a
case that can be easily ignored - come on, who works with more than one copy running at the same
time? - Sure, this would add more power, but is it REALLY convenient?)
Of course, if I buy software, it will be for my PERSONAL use. I would not be ready to share my OWN
license with other people and become an illegal user.
I somehow like the method Renoise uses, they create a personalized version of the software online, which
contains your user data. If they find a version of your copy floating around in the net, you will be banned
and can't update any more.
I am pretty sure people buying this software are going to use it almost exclusively for themselves. Every
other action would not be legal, and that is what you actually want to avoid when buying it!
It is practically the same if you share a bought version of Live amonst a lof of people, or if you use a
cracked version. At least sharing it amongst people would bring the company the money for ONE unit,
but - the others using it would be in the same boat as the ones using cracks... so it's actually about
getting out of that boat entirely. So I think it doesn't matter a lot if you make the authorization system a
little bit more tolerant, the number of illegal users would stay roughly the same...
But ok, it's still their choice... one has to accept it.
What I've heard until now is that ableton is not an intolerant company when it comes to the treatment of
its customers - so it's not THAT bad how it might sound ^^.
If you're really in a hurry, you should call them - email requests will take a little bit longer I guess.
specific machine on the server, going online on every startup, which is no solution either. Most studio PCs
are even not connected to internet.
So indeed, this would not be possible. But, as I said it is an issue of being legal - else you could also
install a cracked version on the studio-computer.
What I don't like is that there is a limitation of two installs at all - one should be able to install his copy
wherever he wants, as long as it is on the OWN machines, and not used at the same time (which is also a
case that can be easily ignored - come on, who works with more than one copy running at the same
time? - Sure, this would add more power, but is it REALLY convenient?)
Of course, if I buy software, it will be for my PERSONAL use. I would not be ready to share my OWN
license with other people and become an illegal user.
I somehow like the method Renoise uses, they create a personalized version of the software online, which
contains your user data. If they find a version of your copy floating around in the net, you will be banned
and can't update any more.
I am pretty sure people buying this software are going to use it almost exclusively for themselves. Every
other action would not be legal, and that is what you actually want to avoid when buying it!
It is practically the same if you share a bought version of Live amonst a lof of people, or if you use a
cracked version. At least sharing it amongst people would bring the company the money for ONE unit,
but - the others using it would be in the same boat as the ones using cracks... so it's actually about
getting out of that boat entirely. So I think it doesn't matter a lot if you make the authorization system a
little bit more tolerant, the number of illegal users would stay roughly the same...
But ok, it's still their choice... one has to accept it.
What I've heard until now is that ableton is not an intolerant company when it comes to the treatment of
its customers - so it's not THAT bad how it might sound ^^.
If you're really in a hurry, you should call them - email requests will take a little bit longer I guess.
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davepermen
- Posts: 2198
- Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
- Location: Switzerland
- Contact:
Re: New authorization method
I'd like the renoise solution as well. I like to have my software installed on tons of pc's at the same time, as I can't manage to work on one machine all the time (laptop, pc at the club, pc at the studio, etc.. it's everywhere my user, my ableton, my visual studio, etc). thanks to a nice networked home server, i don't even have to care where i work on.
would be nice if the setup + the exe would be mine, and only i can run it (f.e. even with an integrated encoded user/password), so that, even when someone steals my setup (which is not unimaginable), he can't get far with it.
i wouldn't even have a problem at logging me in each time i start ableton, yes..
then again, the current way is okay for me. they let me reactivate my ableton when ever i retry some new os (win7 lately), get a new laptop, or what ever.
would be nice if the setup + the exe would be mine, and only i can run it (f.e. even with an integrated encoded user/password), so that, even when someone steals my setup (which is not unimaginable), he can't get far with it.
i wouldn't even have a problem at logging me in each time i start ableton, yes..
then again, the current way is okay for me. they let me reactivate my ableton when ever i retry some new os (win7 lately), get a new laptop, or what ever.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.
Re: New authorization method
Before I replaced my laptop I had 5 or 6 times in a year that I had to rebuild (and contact Ableton for another auth code). I found them very fast and friendly, not much of an issue. That said, they never questioned my need for another auth code so if I'd been unscrupulous I'm sure I could have farmed out auth codes to other people and in that respect the iTunes model would probably be better for Ableton too.
Re: New authorization method
I am actually finding the authorisation mechanism on ableton quite annoying. I have a laptop and another computer I have just built. I have gone for a dual boot configuration on my new machine for testing purposes with windows 7 and xp. Now I am finding that I can't authorise on the xp side of my machine as it is saying I have run out of authorisations. I know that ableton are very quick to give another autorisation; but today is sunday and I doubt anyone is there to check my mail. Now I have to download a 30 day trial and waste time. I know that the people that used patched versions of ableton off the net don't have to do anything. Seems like the honest people that pay good money for the product are suffering.
fhyio
fhyio
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tw1nstates
- Posts: 1127
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:00 pm
Re: New authorization method
The authorisation is fine imo
They should perhaps offer an ilok solution or similar as well.
They should perhaps offer an ilok solution or similar as well.
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
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