I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
xzusa8ky
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Location: Vienna

I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by xzusa8ky » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:34 am

Dear Ableton.... :(

Why is it so damn difficult to release a working version of live 8? Why do i have to struggle with the same bugs everytime a new version of live is released? Had to wait for beta 5b2 before you guys did fix it! (hopefully). This time its a bug with lives rewiring that sucks! Wouldnt it be about time to get a better programmer? I mean take an example on Propellerheads and Reason, they do release a piece of stable software just like that!? I am working with Reason and the software just WORKS! but Live just have bugs bugs bugs! Would it be possible to learn from the last version so at least old bugs would be fixed even before the new version is released? Expand the beta testing time until Live is running stable! That is actually what people pay for! A working piece of software!

Kind Regards....
Bitwig/1.0.5 - Ableton/Live 8 - Apple/MacPro-2.8Ghz-8Core-RAID - Samsung/SM-P2770H 27" - Yamaha/HS80M/HS10W - Behringer/BCR/BCF - Allen & Heath/Xone:3D - Sennheiser/HD25-13 - Native Instruments/Komplete9/Traktor Pro

paq
Posts: 115
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by paq » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:07 pm

dont want to argue against u in general, but u cant compare live with reason. u can compare to all the daws with similar possibilities such as sonar, cubase, logic, fl studio and what there all is, but not with reason. reason is way more secluded (if this is the right word), thats why its so stable.
nothin notable here.

Willyum
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Willyum » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:27 pm

I agree that it shouldn't be compared to Reason, for the same reason given.... However I am also getting tired of getting 'Updates' that only have a long list of bug fixes and very minimal (if any) work-flow improvements. Of the very few 'improvements' I've seen, most of them have been User Manual updates.

Normally I probably wouldn't have even said anything but this last 'Update' 8.0.4 has crashed my system 4 times, and the other versions didn't... And I mean complete crashes where my system actually rebooted.

Updates should have both, bug fixes and a decent amount of work-flow improvements (I'm not talking about new functionality or devices... Just faster and more efficient)

Nicknackerski
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Nicknackerski » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:07 pm

I partly agree, I have a copy of logic 8 which has been around for a while now, is pretty robust and it is only version 8.02
I have a mac pro 8 core and can basically do whatever i want in logic CPU wise.

Live gets maxed out very easily and hates realtime program change messages to synths which i use a lot,

On the plus side Live is way better to use than logic, Great for Songwriting, extremely versatile, I love using it.

i just wish it was a bit more stable, but with the amount of different VST's, SoundCards, PC's, Control surfaces, Midi devices and also the different ways people use live,
I can totally understand how hard to get agency from a new product in such a short time is.

Pasha
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Pasha » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:32 pm

No piece of software 'just works'. Not even the Mac OS X advertised like that does...
We had many betas in a row in a very short time frame this in my opinion means many things at the same time:

1. Ableton Commitment to their loyal customers is very high.
2. With Live 8 they introduced a lot of new features and possibly the yet not here Max for Live needed probably an API rethinking the core
3. We're in the middle of a major OS overhaul with 64bit pushing. This might or not had an impact on Live 8

Microsoft releases little patch, automatically, every day to your systems. All software vendors do the same.
Ableton is a software only company. They can't rely on nothing else to survive. They have to be innovative
and being so involves taking some risks. Live 8 has a good promises to become stellar with Max for Live.
It's hazardous. They had to review the whole code base I think.
On the Apple Logic forums there are many users reporting problems that probably will be fixed but not in the near future.
Apple makes money from other sources there's no Logic for Windows.. half of the work.
They can release a 90% stable software and forget about complaints they can even fix Logic via OS updates..
Ableton is doing the opposite, so in a way having so many close betas can be annoying but nobody is forced in taking the betas.
I can say that because 8.0.4 is running stable on my two macs. I do not even noticed some of the bugs they claim.
Ableton represent one innovative company in the software industry.
Their support is 1st class and as far as I can say it's also exceptional,

my 2 cents.

- Best
- Pasha
Last edited by Pasha on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mac Studio M1
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

Minimal Justice System
Posts: 272
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Location: Scotland

Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Minimal Justice System » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:33 pm

The fact there are issues with Beta versions of Live is a good thing as it shows that the peeps at Ableton are not just sitting on their previous success and running the same product as far as they can with little or no development. Having worked in an IT role where I was overseeing large scale changes to existing programs I can say that it's next to impossible to release a product to a live environment without some bugs unless the changes you are making have no impact on how the application works or what it does. The fact we see all these problems in the beta versions of Live goes a long way to showing the ambition of the creative minds behind Ableton and although annoying they are always going to be there regardless of how many test cases are run on the application before going live. We 'the end user' are the real system testers for any new or changed application as we are the only ones that will try to do things that are in theory possible but not strictly part of initial requirements.

If we want a stable beta we can't expect the next incarnation to be much different from the last.... I know I wouldn't want that. :(
Live 7, Sony Vaio, limited talent, limited budget, limitless enthusiasm. :D
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Khazul
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Khazul » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Oddly the crash bugs I am experiencing were not present in either Live 7 or the Live 8 betas...

As for support - well that seems to have become a black hole.
Nothing to see here - move along!

ark
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by ark » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:05 pm

xzusa8ky wrote:Why do i have to struggle with the same bugs everytime a new version of live is released?
The reason is that every piece of software with which Live has to interface--especially the operating system--is so complicated that no one has any chance of understanding it completely. It is hard enough to produce a very small program that is completely free of bugs; imagine how much harder it must be to write a large program that depends on multiple incompletely documented interfaces to other large programs.

h4nc0
Posts: 141
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by h4nc0 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:32 pm

Trust me, I just moved from Nuendo/Cubase to Live, and it's much worse there. I've felt that Live 8 is very stable and just working compared to some of those applications. And Steinberg releases updates once or twice a year which adds new features instead of fixing bugs. Now, you really don't want that.

Hermanus
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Hermanus » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:36 pm

Pasha wrote:Ableton represent one innovative company in the software industry.
Their support is 1st class and as far as I can say it's also exceptional,

my 2 cents.

- Best
- Pasha
Agreed about the support, N1!

I like betas, but I'm a fresh user so my opinion is not very neutral.

leedsquietman
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:09 pm

Steinberg though also continue to develop a product over a longer timescale, I think it's less frustrating when you don't have to keep buying a new upgrade every single year, as opposed to every other year with Steinberg and about once every 2.5-3 years for Logic.

Cubase 5.0.1., the first revision, is also extremely stable for me and this is rare, usually you have to wait 3 or 4 bugfixes.

Cubase 4, introducing 50 new features in 4.1 including huge stuff like flexible routing and sidechaining with vst3 plugins, and then the update to 4.5 which included 64 bit support would have been paid upgrades if they'd happened in Live.

Not knocking Ableton - they are a great company, Live is awesome software, but it's obvious that Live 8 is not yet in optimal condition stability or workflow wise for a large number of people. Live 7 was buggy on first release too, but had been mostly cleared up by 7.0.3 for most users (although some had to wait until 7.0.10 for optimal stability). Some new features were also added into Live 7 such as support for certain controllers, including the APC40.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

hurlingdervish
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by hurlingdervish » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:25 pm

you can defend ableton all you want, they are saving money by having the public do the testing for them...

its very obvious.

and bullshit.

if you cant hire enough people to test the product in time, then dont release it!

cotdagoo
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Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by cotdagoo » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:01 pm

what makes it difficult is releasing their software on a certain date (specified a good year in advance). once that date rolls around and they don't have their software on the shelves they lose out on potential sales.

rather than pushing this date back to release a solid product it seems corners were cut and a 'beta' product was packaged and sent to retail shops.. i couldn't believe boxes were reported being on the shelves while 'beta' testing was still underway.

i tested this product before it was released.. and now i'm paying for apparently the same privilege (testing buggy software)

curious to see what kind of impact this stupidity has when they release v9 and no one buys it for a couple months after this crap

bugfixes from 8.0.1 - 8.0.4:

Prelistening of encoded audio files could lead to hard disk overloads.

Under certain conditions, replacing files via the File Manager would not work.[5142]

Repairing the Library would not update/repair meta data of Groove files.[5156]

On Mac OS X, having the Library on an external drive and attach/detaching it while Live is running would not work properly [4529]

Loading a third party plug-in which has fewer parameters than a previous version could crash Live.

Drag & drop of a preset within the Live's browser would not keep the destination folder open.[5140]

In a particular Live set, a certain audio clip would not play properly because of misaligned transients.[5284]

Some parameters for Faderfox controllers would not be correctly named.

Macro names would not always be automatically updated in nested Racks.[4149]

Saving a preset would fail if the corresponding preset folder does not exist.[5247]

The “Collect and Save” button of the file manager would not be named properly in some cases.[5290]

Under certain conditions, the file icon for an audio file would not be updated after an .asd file is created.[5299]

Under certain conditions, Arranger crossfades would produces clicks in the audio.

Looping an audio file in 'Tones' warp mode could have audio artifacts while fading.[5269]

Horizontal lines in pitch-like envelope editors would disappear with Zoom > 100%.[5315]

As soon as a progress bar for a Live pack installation was shown for the first time, there were no 'marching ants' anymore when loading a document, for the rest of the Live run.

Under certain conditions, the loop brace vertical lines in the Arranger would not cover the whole height of the Arranger.[5316]

If no Library is selected, the Repair button would be enabled and clicking it would crash Live.[5324]

The "Show Preferences" command would check if default packages need to be installed.[5308]

Copying, deleting and then pasting a file in the file browser would freeze Live.

Pasting files into Live's browser could make the mouse cursor jump.[4422]

Under certain conditions, clip fades and device automation would be visible at the same time.[5344]

In the Arpeggiator, receiving a note-off for the current step could skip a note.

Slicing presets would be shown even if they can't be used because the required additional products are not unlocked.

The 'Configure' mode would not work for certain VST plug-ins.

Copying an Instrument over an existing instrument from one track to another would not work.[5351]

The latency when playing instruments via external input might be too high in some cases.[5355]

Recording MIDI controller events into a MIDI clip could crash Live when the clip would be deleted during the recording.

On Windows and depending on the computer hardware setup, unlocking Live would not be persistent and had to be done on each new Live start.

Playing back certain REX loops would not work properly for each the second iteration.[5345]

Playing back a sample in 'Tones' warp mode would not work properly during the waveform analyzing.[5310]

Looper pedal would be macro mappable by mistake.[5371]

The overview for a group track would not be updated when undoing a recording.[5343]

In the clip detail view, changing clip loop start time via edit boxes would not work properly when loop start time is negative.[5326]

Under certain conditions, authorize Live on Mac OS X could freeze Live. [5372]

For particular parameters, the automation view would not properly updated. [5386]

Using any XY control would let the mouse pointer jump on mouse-up and could even crash Live.[5400]

On Mac OS X, the Configure mode for Audio Units would not work.

Adding the audio file of a frozen track into the arrangement would result in an extremely long clip.[5409]

Trigger any clip in Complex or Complex Pro warp mode via MIDI Key range mapping would not pitch the clip.[5395]

Under certain conditions, opening a set would not be possible as long as the file manger is open.[5379]

Under certain conditions, when loading a new Live set it would not be possible to delete the temp directory of the current project. For example after unfreezing a track.[5408]

MIDI Mapping a parameter with identical min and max value would crash Live.[5346]

Loading a particular Live set would fail with an "Invalid Product ID" message box.[5427]

Browsing within the Japanese help pages could freeze Live [5449]

On Mac OS X, "Move to trash" and "Show in finder" command would not work when particular toll are installed. (e.g. PathFinder)

The unfrozen-state of a track would not be saved properly within a Live set [4413]

Opening a particular set would crash as soon as the clip detail view of a particular clip would be opened [5454]

When committing grooves for audio clips, the created volume clip envelope could produce audio clicks [5266]

The "Auto" switch of racks would not always work properly [4568]

When moving the mouse over Macros, the the name of the corresponding macro would not always displayed in the status bar [5116]

In the Operator, the Notch filter display would not be displayed properly [5157]

MIDI note preview would not always play all notes when moving the insert marker with arrow left/right [5469]

Arranger recording of an unwarped clip could result in different playing offsets [5455]

In the file manager, the project and library link would not work [5467]

Installing a Live pack fails when one of the installed samples is already in use [3041]

MIDI step input would sometimes happen when it should not; for example when just playing a note while there's a time selection, or when pressing keys other than arrow left and arrow right. MIDI step input would also generate undo steps even if nothing happened [5486]

When scrubbing in the Arranger, sample pre-loading would not always work properly [4696]

Transport controls of certain controller surfaces would not work properly [5505]

Playing back a particular audio clip in Beats warp mode would lead to disk overloads on loop back jump [5501]

Under certain conditions, Collect and Save would copies no longer used audio files of frozen tracks [5114]

Slice to MIDI track on audio clip might crash Live [5390]

The voice stealing mechanism of the Impulse would not always work properly [573]

In the Vocoder, several parameter would appear with different names in the automation chooser compared to the names from the info text [5060]

In the Multiband Dynamics, several parameter would appear with different names in the automation chooser compared to the names from the info text [5060]

Creating a MIDI track via double click on an instrument preset in the Browser would not work when a Return or the master track is selected [3399]

The Session view scrolling with the APC40 would not always work properly

Third party plug-in offering more inputs that outputs could crash Live

Pasting a Live set from the browser into the current Live set would select and scroll to a slot in the last scene [5493]

Not quantized arranger scrubbing would not work properly [5491]

Slicing audio file using a slicing preset containing two levels of nested racks with cascading macro mappings would crash Live [5458]

Dragging a clip from a Live set in the browser to the empty arranger area would not work sometimes or even crash Live [5508]

Having an unwarped clip which spans more than the whole range of its next clip. Copying both of them are could crash Live.

In the browser, collapsing a folder while renaming contained file after exporting a clip or track into that folder could crash Live [5528]

Play through optimization would not work properly for audio monitoring and recording, resulting in high latencies [5529]

Unquantized scrubbing would not work properly in MIDI clips

On Mac OS X, the DUY Tape AU plug-in would crash on instantiation [5429]

When the Looper is set to a fixed length recording and the song is running, the recording length of the Looper might be miscalculated

Under certain conditions, moving a MIDI clip in arrangement could crash Live [5543]

Protocol recording of audio clips in ReWire slave mode would lead to silent arranger clips [5541]

Dragging a multi selection of audio files into Live would not work properly, when the multi selection would contain .asd files too [5485]

The 'Select All' context menu command would be available by accident for an entry in the device browser [5496]

On Windows, moving Library could transform .AbletonPresetInfo files into _AbletonPresetInfo files [5506]

Quantized scrubbing would not work properly in the Arranger [5490]

Setting a tempo via scene launch would not work properly if there's a loop in the Arranger [5535]

Exporting or consolidating audio would create a fade in in the resulting audio file [5540]

After Grouping, ungrouping or re-grouping of tracks, the APC40 would not work properly anymore

Doing undo via keyboard shortcut while a modal dialog is opened could crash Live [5561]

With the APC40, stopping clips via the clip-stop buttons would not work properly

Switching device banks would not work properly when using the 'microKontrol' as Control Surface [5568]

On Mac OS X, having a plug-in opening a modal dialog and switching then to another application would crash Live [5583]

MIDI loop recording in Arranger would not work properly after the first loop iteration [5203]

Using follow actions on clips in Legato mode could crash Live [5580]

On Windows, editing the info text for an arrangement locator would not work properly [5574]

On Mac OS X, slow mouse wheel changes would not work properly [5552]

On Mac OS X, drag'n drop operation with certain key modifiers could lead to an 'unstoppable' drag'n drop operation [5564]

Restoring from the undo history after a crash could lead to another crash

In several surface controller scripts, the arm buttons would not select tracks anymore [5594]

^- scary

Minimal Justice System
Posts: 272
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Location: Scotland

Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by Minimal Justice System » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:08 pm

hurlingdervish wrote:you can defend ableton all you want, they are saving money by having the public do the testing for them...

its very obvious.

and bullshit.

if you cant hire enough people to test the product in time, then dont release it!
To suggest that Ableton are not testing previous to launching a beta version is a bit extreme, beta testing is a way of testing beyond the standard test cases they will use for their testing. The test cases Ableton will use will be created from the system requirement documentation which is the starting point of any change and is unlikely to include testing for many VST's etc. What many people fail to realise is that a simple change to one part of the program may have a knock on effect to something completely unrelated and would normally be picked up with some form of regression testing but to run a full regression test for every functionality of the program would be a massive undertaking. Beta releases help to pick up these faults and in turn do help Ableton to keep the cost of the final product down considerably which I don't see as a bad thing.

I very much doubt anyone with a development background would have a negative view of beta testing and I would suggest that anyone who has issues with Beta releases should just simply not use them. Without an appreciation of the size of task Ableton have undertaken in the release of Live8 I fail to see how anyone can comment on the quality of the beta version?
Live 7, Sony Vaio, limited talent, limited budget, limitless enthusiasm. :D
http://twitter.com/funkydoolah

ewistrand
Posts: 1537
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:33 am
Location: Eagan, Minnesota

Re: I am so tired of Live Betas.....

Post by ewistrand » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:24 pm

hurlingdervish wrote:you can defend ableton all you want, they are saving money by having the public do the testing for them...

its very obvious.

and bullshit.

if you cant hire enough people to test the product in time, then dont release it!
?

It's impossible to test every hardware and software configuration out there; there's way too many variables. And, it's impossible to predict what updates to other apps, OS updates, etc. are going to do to break compatibility. Sure- Ableton could do as you say and hire more testers. However, the cost of doing so will come out of your pocket- are you willing to put up with a 50-100% price increase?


ew

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