Mono Summing etc. (help please)

[re.mark]

Right, Im working on a track, just a random remix for fun, but I decided to check the mono output of the master to how how it might translate in a club (as most clubs are still in mono ofc). The main mix, in stereo, sound great, really wide and fantastic, but when I listen to the Master output with a Utility selecting just Left or Right to listen to, It sounds incredibly dodgy. It sounds like most of my main sound have been cancelled out and Im only getting the reverb for them coming through. Sounds like it could be phase issues, but When i tried inverting phase of say the Reverb buss, it makes no difference.

Am I checking the mono sum correctly, is there a better way than using Utility - and has anyone got any idea how I can improove the mix so it still sounds as wide in stereo but doesnt translate to utter gash in mono.

I'll try post some demos now of how it sounds as I dont think Ive explained it very well.


edit: my rhyme to describe how Im feeling is -
Left + right = Audible shite

[crumhorn]

Try using both left and right but reduce the stereo width control to zero.

[re.mark]

Try using both left and right but reduce the stereo width control to zero.

Wont work, when you select Left or Right, the Width paramter is disabled.

[re.mark]

Audio sample from the intro

Stereo: http://www.mark-chadwick.co.uk/files/DITD_Stereo.mp3
Left: http://www.mark-chadwick.co.uk/files/DITD_LEFT.mp3

[crumhorn]

What I mean is don't select either left or right, let them both play (select stereo) and make it into mono by reducing the width control to zero instead.

[re.mark]

What I mean is don't select either left or right, let them both play and make it mono by reducing the width control instead.

oh right yea, sorry, misread you. sounds even worse now haha. horrible phasing effect on my claps. urgh. oh the joys of mono

[crumhorn]

all you can do is muck around with the fx until you find something that sounds good in both mono and stereo.

[Zygi]

forget about the spread setting.

use eq8 l/r or delays instead...

[ethios4]

^ +1

Most of the really awesome sounding stereo effects don't translate well to mono. If you keep your sound sources mostly mono, and use panning, M/S effects, ping-pong, stuff like that you will get much better mono results.

The fx that sound good when solo'd often don't sound good in a mix, or translate well to mono.

[re.mark]

yeaa ok, I remember reading in another thread a while ago to discount the spread setting when wanting to check mono mixes. Id never realised EQ8 could do L/R separate, nice, although useless for trying to monitor in L/R separately.

Thing is, as its a remix, the source material that im using is the main part of stereo information. Ive not applied any effects to it (except some EQ) but when I mono it up it sounds shite. Im not doing big stereo tricks, its all simple stuff. Ping ping i cba with as I hear it everywhere. But laymans stuff like a Clap planned 12 to the Left, sounds aweful when I monitor just the left or right channel.

[ethios4]

Most mono systems aren't just playing L or R, they are summing to mono, which is replicated by turning Utility Width down to 0%, not by just playing Left or Right.

[leedsquietman]

Another trick used by some engineers regarding panning is to do this in mono using one speaker and this often translates well to stereo mixing, for example panning a hi-hat around in mono, there is usually a sweet spot where it just jumps out clearly and when you take it back it to stereo it sound great too.

I have Inspector XL which includes phase meters and goniometers for measuring stereo image etc.
http://www.rndigitallabs.com/Plug-ins/I ... orial.html


Soundforge 9 also has these (although less impressive graphically). Yes, using mono sources and not panning like slightly mutated copies (slightly delayed or modulated on one side and panned opposite etc) can help to reduce these issues and a lot of producers actually set up reverbs in mono, i.e. mono central, mono left, mono right and use these as sends to avoid phasing issues. Not using stereo widening tools and ensuring that you don't run width controls TOO wide is another way to ease these problems - changing the pan law can help too, unfortunately not available in Live. Another thing to avoid is excessive boosting of EQs which also adds phase distortion, try and EQ subtractively as much as possible.

[knotkranky]

I would forget about focusing on stereo width since goofing with spreaders and such will kill yer mono. It should sound solid in mono and stereo. It's not worth it. How many listeners sit right between their speakers for any length? And what about ear-bud peeps? I don't think they care about having there brain split apart with phazy spreaders either. Sometimes you need them but it's rare for me. I'll take solid in mono over weak in stereo every time.

[cbentley]

yeaa ok, I remember reading in another thread a while ago to discount the spread setting when wanting to check mono mixes. Id never realised EQ8 could do L/R separate, nice, although useless for trying to monitor in L/R separately.

Thing is, as its a remix, the source material that im using is the main part of stereo information. Ive not applied any effects to it (except some EQ) but when I mono it up it sounds shite. Im not doing big stereo tricks, its all simple stuff. Ping ping i cba with as I hear it everywhere. But laymans stuff like a Clap planned 12 to the Left, sounds aweful when I monitor just the left or right channel.

Any particular reason you want the claps panned off center? Just curious...

A few things you can try. If you have a stereo track that doesn't need to be stereo, drop one channel to make it mono. Percussion, drums,etc. unless it's a specific sound that benefits from being stereo.In the case of your claps, if it's phasing due to collapsing the main image to mono, you have something in the recording causing it to cancel out. If it needs some stereo processing, feed it to a reverb(quick and subtle for ambience, longer for effect) or delay or something and make the return hard left and right(or one or the other).

Things recorded in stereo like pads, stabs, etc. somethime benefit by dropping one side to make it mono and then feeding it into a chorus, delay, pitch shifter, or even opposite panned mono reverb. Keep in mind also that some of these amazing stereo sounds people use are simply two similar sounds playing the same part panned opposite each other.

All suggestions aside, you need to do what makes it sound right to you. Mixing is more an art form than anything else...

[re.mark]

DEATH TO MONO
Seriously, we're in 2009 now. not 1909. Surely we, 'the producers', should be saying this is how I want my track to be heard, not "oh, now my tracks perfect Ive got to go and play silly with it, so that it suits all those clubs that cant be arsed upgrading their facilities". I suppose nightclubs have really missed the boat with the 'Stereo Clubbing Experience' as that sounds like some jaded 1960s fad that wouldn't work as a sales technique now. I just think its slightly stupid that we have to worry about our production and change it - to a detrimental degree - just to suit backwards compatibility. boooooo. but what do I know, im only a bedroom hobbyist.

Thanks for the good feedback so far, if anyone else has more help to add please do.
Ive just downloaded a seemingly decent vectorscope AU so hopefully that will aid in monitoring phase issues and solving them. @leedsquietman Ive always been a firm believer in subtractive EQ - unless theres a certain spot that gains slightly from a gentle 1/2db boost. nothing mega. Ive never used any stereo widening tools either (except for my own sample delay done in racks, which will delay the left or right channel by a certain amount of ms to add a sense of dimension).