LIVE 8 WITH MS20 FX VST AND MS20ic CONTROLLER PROBLEM

[mcinnes01]

Hi,

I am quite new to ableton but have been trying to set up my equipment with ableton for some time to no avail. Basically I have the Legacy Collection which I want to use the MS-20(fx) VST as an external signal processor within ableton. So I can use the MS-20(fx) VST as an effects processor, with the MS-20ic usb controller controlling the VST.

I have an Ego Sys Wami Rack 24 as the interface for everything and I am also struggling to map my korg electribe ER1 Mk2 which I plan to use as my main controller for ableton, but thats another story...

Any way so far I've configured the MS20 controller through midi-ox as (usb controller IN to go to midi yoke 1 OUT). So in ableton I have turned midi yoke 1 IN, ON on the midi track input preference. If I then open the VST plugin i can see the MS20 interface, and this is where the first problem arises....

Either ableton or the VST seems to respond very buggy, if I open the stand alone MS-20 VST to use the controller as a keyboard it works fine and you can see all of the knob movements etc. However if I open the MS-20(fx) VST to use it as an external signal processor, non of the knob movements work.

From fiddling around I have found if I open the normal MS20 VST first and then close it, then open the MS20(fx) VST, it works fine and picks up all the controller changes. However When I try to assign the VST to a midi track etc, it isn't working with the controller.

Is anyone else using the MS-20 controller with the FX VST, how do you get it working?

Help much appreciated!!!

Thanks,

Andy

PS anyone any suggestions on mapping an electribe to use all knobs and buttons (I've been trying for months using midi-ox)

[slirak]

Why do you use MIDI-OX with the controller? There's no need for it unless you're trying to use it to control more than one software at once.
Just plug the MS-20i in, open up Ableton and enable its MIDI ports. Not that it has anything to do with your issue, it just seems unnecessary.

I can confirm that the trick with first opening up the MS-20 instrument enables you to control the MS-20 fx and that's really weird. Quite possibly a bug. But perhaps not like you think...

I've tried with a few different instruments and fx (VST and AU) at random and it seems like Live handles VST instruments and effects differently when it comes to MIDI control. Or maybe it's the plug-ins. Anyway, every instrument I tried responded to the MS-20 controller's knob twists without me having to set up anything, while none of the fx plug-ins did. A bug? By design? I don't know. Anyone?

Anyway, there's a better way than opening up the instrument first: use Live's MIDI map feature. To do this, you must first pick which parameters that should be mappable and then map them to the MS-20 controller's knobs. You can either first enter configure mode and pick all parameters and then enter MIDI map mode and map them, or you can pick and map at the same time. It's just a matter of workflow. I'll outline the latter workflow below.

1) Drop the MS-20 fx on a track.
2) Click the little arrow in the MS-20 fx's device title bar.
3) Click the configure button that's now visible.
4) Enter MIDI map mode by clicking on the MIDI button in the top right corner of Live's main window.
5) Click a knob in the MS-20 fx's UI. The parameter in question should now appear below the configure button.
6) Twist the corresponding knob on the MS-20 controller. It's now mapped to the parameter you clicked in the above step.
7) Repeat step 5 and 6 for every parameter.
Unfortunately, I couldn't seem to map the patch jacks. Bug?? Also, it seems you can't patch with the controller at all in the fx VST, so you must resort to the mouse. Lame. Bug?

8 ) Exit configure mode by clicking that button.
9) Exit MIDI map mode by clicking that button.
10) One thing that isn't a bug, but certainly a poor design decision by Ableton (fixed in L9 perhaps??) is that the only way to save all your hard work (except by saving the Live set) is to wrap the plug-in in a rack. Right click the MS-20 fx's device title bar and chose Group.
11) Now save the resulting rack.

Done. The next time you wanna use the MS-20 fx, just drag in that rack instead of the fx VST.

[mcinnes01]

Hi Slirak,

Thanks for your help, have just had a few attempts at following your instruction (remember complete beginner so sorry for any dumb questions in advance) although your mapping instructions were very clear I haven't been able to map 1 single parameter. After dropping the ms20fx on to a track a pressed the arrow and configure but then as soon as you enter midi map mode the configure mode on the ms20fx changes back to grey, so im guessing turns off.

Your point about the midiox was useful, it was unnecessary, maybe it was just my initial response to finding the bug where the VST has no response to the controller, but anyway works fine just on usb now.

I also tried dropping the normal ms20 on to a track and following the map instructions to see if it was the ms20 fx just being buggy, but it still didnt work. My only thought as to what I could be doing wrong is; am I supposed to select the knobs etc that are on the VST's gui or on something else. This is only because the gui doesn't seem to go purple like the rest of ableton when your in midi map mode.

Does anyone have the MS-20ic controller, controlling the MS-20fx VST? The whole point of me buying the MS-20 was to use it as an effects unit and not for its keyboard capabilities, interesting as they are. Simian mobile disco use a real MS-20 for its external signal processor to mangle any audio they feed into it, unfortunately I couldn't afford the real thing but was led to believe that the legacy collection and controller is capable, am I wrong? Any way if anyone has any clues as how it can be used in this manner it would be much appreciated?

Thanks again slirak for your help and if can shed any light towards the mapping problem that would be great. Shame about the patch bay...

PS had a thought could the MS-20fx be used an controlled by the controller in reason and then use reason in ableton?

Thanks for ,

Andy

[slirak]

After dropping the ms20fx on to a track a pressed the arrow and configure but then as soon as you enter midi map mode the configure mode on the ms20fx changes back to grey, so im guessing turns off.

Yes it turns grey, no it doesn't turn off...

am I supposed to select the knobs etc that are on the VST's gui or on something else. This is only because the gui doesn't seem to go purple like the rest of ableton when your in midi map mode.

That's exactly what you should do. That's what I thought I was telling you to do in step 5: "5) Click a knob in the MS-20 fx's UI. The parameter in question should now appear below the configure button."

If you can't figure it out, get back to me and I'll grab a few screen dumps, that'll probably make it clearer. Gotta go right now though. I'm in Sweden, where you can only get your fine wines and foul spirits at state controlled stores and they close at 3 pm on Saturdays...

Does anyone have the MS-20ic controller, controlling the MS-20fx VST?

Yep, I do. Though I mainly use the instrument plug-in.

unfortunately I couldn't afford the real thing but was led to believe that the legacy collection and controller is capable, am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. It's not the real thing obviously, but I've had tons of fun with the real thing and still enjoy the fake a lot.

PS had a thought could the MS-20fx be used an controlled by the controller in reason and then use reason in ableton?

I don't think it's possible, Reason doesn't support VST plugs, does it? You can certainly use Ableton and Reason in parallel though, via ReWire. But that's another story and one I have very little knowledge about. Lots of people around here knows all about it though.

/Jonas

[mcinnes01]

Hi,

Tried again managed to get a little further, but it only allows me to set 1 parameter, for example if I click the volume knob then move it on the controller it maps that, but then when I go to the next parameter it just over writes the previous, is there something I need to do between mapping parameters. Which version of legacy are you using maybe I have an out of date one, but as far I was aware it was up to date. I am able to map multiple other things in ableton to the controller, not that I want to, but I tried it just to make sure I was doing it right.

Thanks again,

Andy

[slirak]

Hi,

Tried again managed to get a little further, but it only allows me to set 1 parameter, for example if I click the volume knob then move it on the controller it maps that, but then when I go to the next parameter it just over writes the previous, is there something I need to do between mapping parameters. Which version of legacy are you using maybe I have an out of date one, but as far I was aware it was up to date. I am able to map multiple other things in ableton to the controller, not that I want to, but I tried it just to make sure I was doing it right.

Thanks again,

Andy

Hi Andy,

There were two errors/omissions in my description.
1) This is the important one. In Live's preferences you should set both Track and Remote to On for the MS 20 controller input.
2) You don't need to quit both MIDI map mode and Configure mode when you're done, just quit Configure mode.

I've also created a small movie that shows you how to do the actual mapping. You'll need a quicktime capable player to watch it: http://www.webnoise.net/ms20.mov

I recommend that you download it (right click the link and choose to save the target) instead of just clicking the link. This way you'll be able to scale up the movie. It's very small you see...

/Jonas

[mcinnes01]

Hi Jonas,

Thanks for the video it was very useful, still no joy though...

I found out about the track and remote on preferences when I was trying to get the ms20 to map anything in ableton the other day. From your video I have found I've been following your instructions right but I have identified what isn't working...

When you enter configure mode on the ms20 ui there is an area under the configure box that says "to add parameters to this panel, click on them in the plugin's window". Then as you've said you enter midi map mode click a parameter and it then displays in that panel under configure on the ui. Well it should... but in mine that is where the problem is, it doesn't show the parameters like it did in your video and I'm guessing thats why I can't map them.

Any ideas as to how I might get the ui to recognise the parameter selection and add it to the ui's panel when mapping?

thanks for all your help,

Andy

[slirak]

Hi Jonas,

Thanks for the video it was very useful, still no joy though...

I found out about the track and remote on preferences when I was trying to get the ms20 to map anything in ableton the other day. From your video I have found I've been following your instructions right but I have identified what isn't working...

When you enter configure mode on the ms20 ui there is an area under the configure box that says "to add parameters to this panel, click on them in the plugin's window". Then as you've said you enter midi map mode click a parameter and it then displays in that panel under configure on the ui. Well it should... but in mine that is where the problem is, it doesn't show the parameters like it did in your video and I'm guessing thats why I can't map them.

Any ideas as to how I might get the ui to recognise the parameter selection and add it to the ui's panel when mapping?

thanks for all your help,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I'm a bit stumped. If you're really sure you're doing exactly as in the video, I really don't know what's going on. What subversion of Live are you using? I've confirmed that the method I describe works in 8.04 and in the 8.05b5 beta, under OS X 10.5.7. I'm using the latest Syncrosoft protected versions of the KLC plug-ins.

You can try mapping in two operations rather than one; first pick all parameters in configure mode, then map them. Maybe that will work for you.
Follow step 1 - 3. Skip step 4 and move directly to step 5. Click every parameter in the MS-20 fx's GUI until they're all present in the area that says (said) "to add parameters to this panel, click on them in the plugin's window". Then click the Configure button again to exit configure mode, but don't collapse the panel by clicking the little arrow. Now enter MIDI mapping mode and first click a parameter in the area that says (used to say) "to add parameters to this panel, click on them in the plugin's window", then turn the corresponding knob on the controller. Repat until you've mapped all parameters.

If this doesn't work for you, I can only conclude that there's a bug in your particular setup and you should report it to both Ableton and Korg.

Good luck!
/Jonas

[mcinnes01]

Hi Jonas,

Gave it a break for a while but had an inspired moment, came back and did it straight away. Had to select all first before I entered midi map mode but it was easy enough once I did that and then I saved it as a rack like you suggested.

Out of interest can use assign control over momentary switch and wheel and do you have the keyboard mapped for anything? The reason I ask is because, everything I mapped moves in the UI but when I press a key or move the wheel nothing happens on the ui?

Thanks so much for your help, its great to see people willing to help in community forums.


Andy

[slirak]

Hi Jonas,

Gave it a break for a while but had an inspired moment, came back and did it straight away. Had to select all first before I entered midi map mode but it was easy enough once I did that and then I saved it as a rack like you suggested.

Out of interest can use assign control over momentary switch and wheel and do you have the keyboard mapped for anything? The reason I ask is because, everything I mapped moves in the UI but when I press a key or move the wheel nothing happens on the ui?

Thanks so much for your help, its great to see people willing to help in community forums.


Andy

Hi Andy,

Glad to hear things finally worked out!

I can't test the wheel, switch and keys myself, because I don't have them connected. You may have noticed in the video that my controller's in a wooden casing and the reason I did this was to get rid of the crappy keyboard, save some space and make it stackable in the process. I completely butchered the original casing.

But I guess it kinda makes sense that you can't map the keys and the mod wheel, I suppose they're regarded (by Korg) as part of the synth plug's performance section. And in the synth plug-in, I guess the keys are permanently wired to note numbers and the wheel to the standard mod wheel cc (CC1). Not sure about the switch.

/Jonas

[slirak]

Out of interest can use assign control over momentary switch and wheel and do you have the keyboard mapped for anything? The reason I ask is because, everything I mapped moves in the UI but when I press a key or move the wheel nothing happens on the ui?

OK, I've researched this a bit.

It seems the mod wheel is indeed locked to CC1 (which is MIDI's standard for modwheels), the keys are locked to note on/off for the synth plug, not sure if they do anything in the fx plug, probably not. The volume knob is CC7 (MIDI's standard for volume) and the momentary switch is locked to channel pressure. Also, as I understand it, the controller only deals with messages on channel 1 (or omni).

So it seems you cannot re-assign any of these knobs/keys/switches (unless you use something like Bomes possibly), you've gotta stick to the standard assignments. It's a Korg design decision, nothing Live can do about it.

/Jonas

[zambari]

Hi there
I'm thinking of buying the ms-20 controller, but it seems a bit sad that you cannot use patching with live8. Can you confirm that there is no (known) way to do it?

Also, on what channel does the controller send it's messages? It may clash with my other controllers if it's on 1.

[slirak]

Hi there
I'm thinking of buying the ms-20 controller, but it seems a bit sad that you cannot use patching with live8. Can you confirm that there is no (known) way to do it?

Also, on what channel does the controller send it's messages? It may clash with my other controllers if it's on 1.

As you may know, there are two MS-20 plug-ins in the Legacy Colletion. You can't process external sound sources with the synth plug-in, for that you use the MS-20 f/x plug-in. The patching problem is with the f/x plug-in only. It's still possible to patch using the GUI and your mouse.

I know of no workaround, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. I don't use the f/x plug-in all that much.
Don't know if this is an Ableton or Korg issue, haven't messed with it in another host.

The controller transmits MIDI messages on channel 1, not configurable. You could re-route the channel via hardware or something like Boome's MIDI translator I suppose.

[zambari]

As you may know, there are two MS-20 plug-ins in the Legacy Colletion. You can't process external sound sources with the synth plug-in, for that you use the MS-20 f/x plug-in. The patching problem is with the f/x plug-in only. It's still possible to patch using the GUI and your mouse.

Thanks for your answer. Does it mean that patching cables on the controller works with the synth (not fx) ?
I'm sorry to bother you but this is still not clear to me.

[mcinnes01]

The fx vst isn't controllable by the controller in ableton but what i have been doing is using the sends and using the standalone ms20. You need a second audio driver as the legacy collection wont share, asio4all is what I use and then i use it as an external audio signal processor routing audio on my desk in to the ms20 software and then out to live or back to the desk.

This seems to be the only way to use the ESP like on a real ms20 with ableton, if you want to use the controller live that is. You can also then use the fx vst on seperate things in ableton but your probably best setting up a patch then assigning a few key controls to another controller.

Your problem with midi channels is quite an easy fix, download midiox 7 then translate the input channel to another channel on the output. You need midi yoke as well which is a virtual midi patch cable essentially.

Hope this helps.

Andy