OT: meat is Murder

[ThrowAway]

The cruelty does happen at farms but not as frequent as the activists would have you think. The air guns are instant kill, brains scrambled, without pain. I hate the fact this is repeatedly shown. Its sensationalist bs on par with the bush adminstrions efforts. I feel bad these animals don't live better lives but if they all did the price of food would skyrocket. Our taxes would sky rocket and yes even your vegan foods would go up dramaticly in price. Besides chickens and veal calfs farm animals live alright lives and deaths 90% of the time.

Wow, you dropped mad science there!

Sounds like you have inside knowledge of every animal at animal production operation on earth...

Also, how exactly would vegan food go up in price if animals were treated better?

The fact is that raw produce is the least subsidized food and needs to be the most. An ear of corn should never cost more than a bag of fritos.

I admit its conjecture but if my opinion is invalidated because of that then yours is certainly too. I could show just as many clips of farm animals being treated appropately. As far as the cost of vegan food going up because of the other farming style foods going up....its simple. The farmers know people pay a premium for it. They will raise the price because your alternitives are more expensive. Also per plot production costs of organic veggies are lower than their non organice counter parts. Production is lower though but the added price is not proportionate to the loss of actually producte. That's just the farmers take. I don't know about the manufacturers take or retailers but I am going to guess they are the real reason it costs a lot more than normal foods.

[aisling]

I'm not really that invested in this topic to get into a big argument but... weren't even the first "humans" meat eaters? Isn't the consumption of meat just a primal instinct for us? At least that's how I feel... or at least that's my excuse for not having enough will power to stick to a vegetarian diet.


My mom's vegetarian. My sister's vegan. They tried their best to get me into that lifestyle and I willingly gave it a shot some years ago. I held on to the vegetarian thing for about 2 weeks then succumbed to the power of a delicious burger during a grill-out party.


I've tried a few other times to get into the veg thing but I always fail. Sure, I love to eat vegetables and salad... as long as there's some flesh on the plate as well... or some substitute, which I need to look into a bit more.

Meat substitutes aint too bad. My mom is a great cook, and somehow she makes these "fake" meats taste delicious...

BUT...

First of all, I only get a taste of my mom's good vegetarian cooking a few times a year when I visit. I am a horrible cook. Well, not horrible. I just don't have much talent or creativity. Season it up, toss it onto a grill or skillet, flip it a few times. Voila'. Works well with real meat because it naturally tastes delicious. Doesn't take much talent to make it taste great... But I'm afraid the results won't be as pleasant with the other stuff. Who knows... I need to give it a shot...

BUT...

Second, I can't really consume a lot of soy. For some reason it acts as a trigger to my migraines.


So, on that note, can the vegan people here tell me if there's any meat alternatives that don't use soy?

Even fermented soy like tempe? Does that irritate your migraines?

While I am an omnivore (with all things in moderation, but an attention to portion size and source) I got into tofu/tempe pizza steaks in college many years ago. It is quite simple to make.......Bread, sauce, onions/peppers and either tofu or tempe and cheese (if you go that way). That was my initial entry into "meatless" meals.

Most "meat alternatives" use either soy and gluten, (including seiten, as far as I am aware of). Both of which are highly processed with added flavor enhancers (considered neuro excito toxins in some circles). There are some brown rice ones, but they are still highbrow and quite expensive....

Sometimes I make my own veggie burgers with mushrooms, onions, garlic, brown rice, brocoli, seasonings, and nuts.....made into a patty then fried, or grilled.......
And there is the Mediterranean standby falafel.

Variety can easily result in complete proteins.....
Many of my salads will have 2-4 kinds of beans (garbanzo, kidney, black), a grain (rice, quinoa....not technically a grain, or bulgur), lentils, and raw nuts (something about roasting nuts makes then taste good, but alters the bioavialbility of nutrients for the worse)

[aisling]

You don't need meat alternatives or soy.

Look at the whole of south India for example.

Humans have added meat to their diet over time, but it is against our biology to eat.

Next time your dog buries a meaty bone, wait a few days, dig it up and chow down!

Over the next few days, your digestive tract (and doctor's bills) will answer your question.

While I have never tried it, a family friend from central america once mentioned when he was a child living without refrigeration, his family would fish, salt the fish, and bury it for a few days to "ferment" it. According to him, they were never sick and at his age 67, he looks pretty good, BMI, skin color, and energy wise.

I always thought it was the northern Indians in particular the Hunza's (pakistan in today's geography) who were the most vital and healthy of the indian people.
info on the Hunza's
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203cat ... frame.html

[Kodama]

A dog bone is usually chicken/pork/beef.

Salt is a curing agent.

I was just saying that you don't need meat analogs or soy, I wasn't making an argument about the comparative health of one end of india vs another (which could as easily boil down to resources or wealth).

[Kodama]

I could show just as many clips of farm animals being treated appropately.

Well those are either not animals living in factory farms, or they are PR images.

Images of animal abuse are not easy to obtain, just ask the director of food, inc.

His comment was that it would be easier to obtain information about nuclear facilities.

[aisling]

A dog bone is usually chicken/pork/beef.

Salt is a curing agent.

I was just saying that you don't need meat analogs or soy, I wasn't making an argument about the comparative health of one end of india vs another (which could as easily boil down to resources or wealth).

ok, I understand

[aqua_tek]

Sorry but my primitive brain needs something on the plate that at least resembles meat. Not for every meal, of course, but I don't think I could get by with NO meat or at least fake meat in any meal.


@aisling I can have soy occasionally. Or frequently but in small doses. I just couldn't have an entirely or mostly soy-based diet.

I'll try looking into that selten and some other alternatives. Now that over the summer I've been rearranging my lifestyle a little bit (in terms of food and excercise... not so much on the partying/drinking front ) I might try and give vegetarianism another shot, but I won't jump in head-first as I've done other times. I think that's where my previous cases of failure stemmed from. I should ease into it.

We'll see.

[OvertoneZero]

This stuff is pretty good: http://www.quorn.us/

It really DOES taste like chicken..

[ThrowAway]

I could show just as many clips of farm animals being treated appropately.

Well those are either not animals living in factory farms, or they are PR images.

Images of animal abuse are not easy to obtain, just ask the director of food, inc.

His comment was that it would be easier to obtain information about nuclear facilities.

Do you have the whole context of that quote? I guess now its you who has knowledge of every factory farm on earth. Not trying to be an asshole just pointing out that it works on both sides.

[jsg4z]

huh, i didnt know that joaquin phoenix was retarded

ROFTL!!!!!!

That your takewaway from this is the above statement

(Note: no sarcasm intended)

bagginz

hehe, well that movie was mildly entertaining but certainly not informative...to me at least. your pill analogy left out one option...

take the yellow pill, already know the truth, and don't care. (hopefully the yellow pill is something fun)

Not that im critical of your opinion, they are opinions after all. I am critical of the method of using inflammatory statements to try and change peoples minds.

Why not just let people make up their own minds based on actual information? I enjoyed the clip of the guy dropping a cinder block on the cow...as if those idiots are the norm. oh and the clips of the holocaust. I take exception with joaquin's parallel of killing cows for meat to the holocaust, despite his statement trying to justify it. joaquin is clearly retarded for propagating that nonsense. he should have a cinder block dropped on his head.

oh yea, and the cow thing made me think if this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtV_QuVVgB0

people are dumb sometimes. im sure animals suffer sometimes...but they are delicious marinated in Mr. Yosheida's sauce.

[ThrowAway]

hehe, well that movie was mildly entertaining but certainly not informative...to me at least. your pill analogy left out one option...

take the yellow pill, already know the truth, and don't care. (hopefully the yellow pill is something fun)

Not that im critical of your opinion, they are opinions after all. I am critical of the method of using inflammatory statements to try and change peoples minds.

Why not just let people make up their own minds based on actual information? I enjoyed the clip of the guy dropping a cinder block on the cow...as if those idiots are the norm. oh and the clips of the holocaust. I take exception with joaquin's parallel of killing cows for meat to the holocaust, despite his statement trying to justify it. joaquin is clearly retarded for propagating that nonsense. he should have a cinder block dropped on his head.



people are dumb sometimes. im sure animals suffer sometimes...but they are delicious marinated in Mr. Yosheida's sauce.

+1

[Kodama]

"That movie was entertaining"

Likely - you would have to take the 'X' pill - the experience pill, because you wouldn't care what 'X' is, as long as it didn't happen to you or someone who you deemed deserving.

This very quality is also why humans treat each other like filth, and yes, it is what allowed the holocaust to happen.

[jsg4z]

"That movie was entertaining"

Likely - you would have to take the 'X' pill - the experience pill, because you wouldn't care what 'X' is, as long as it didn't happen to you or someone who you deemed deserving.

This very quality is also why humans treat each other like filth, and yes, it is what allowed the holocaust to happen.

i didnt mean entertaining like "taking pleasure in watching suffering", simply that the progression of insanity drove me to keep watching. and yes, humans are more deserving. we call exterminators to kill thousands/millions of ants roaches and termites at a time. either everything is equal, or they arent. you cant have both. cows are tasty. we try to kill them as nicely as possible (as opposed to a lion that would rip them into small pieces by the way). sometimes it doesnt go according to plan, but that doesnt make hamburgers 'wrong'. its just your opinion...so dont eat them.

any chance you are from NYC? yea some people treat other people like filth, but again stop generalizing that to all people. i treat my friends and family and sometimes even strangers like people. if i wanted to treat them like filth, they would probably clog my vacuum...but im getting OT.

the holocaust happened because a bunch of stupid people listened to another group of stupid people and mob mentality set it...no personal responsibility or culpability...its a psychological thing. people need to stop comparing everything they dont like to the holocaust, its inappropriate.

[ThrowAway]

Likely - you would have to take the 'X' pill - the experience pill, because you wouldn't care what 'X' is, as long as it didn't happen to you or someone who you deemed deserving.

This very quality is also why humans treat each other like filth, and yes, it is what allowed the holocaust to happen.

I dont take opposition to farming because I dont find it offensive. I am actually very kind to everyone I meet and know unless they do something offensive or rude and have empathy for those ive never come into contact with. The holocaust was a culmination of many things. You cant sum it all up to the german people not giving a shit about what happened to the jews, thats just ridiculous to put it kindly.

[Machinesworking]

i didnt mean entertaining like "taking pleasure in watching suffering", simply that the progression of insanity drove me to keep watching. and yes, humans are more deserving. we call exterminators to kill thousands/millions of ants roaches and termites at a time. either everything is equal, or they arent. you cant have both. cows are tasty.

That's really bad logic. Here's a simple way of looking at it, people are advanced animals, so are cows and pigs. At the very least advanced mammals should be considered as more worthy of respect than an ant. I'm not saying even that ants don't deserve respect, but in the case of just pure logic, one animal is more like us than the other. The only way I know an ant registers fear is by running, and I have no idea if an ant can be happy? I have seen the fear in a cows eyes, and watched a cow be happy.

I have no issues with meat eaters, but to deny that there is a tendency with all animals to give more respect to creatures of advanced evolution as opposed to insects is silly at best. It's akin to arguing that factory farming isn't as bad as PETA shows etc. If you eat meat every day for the rest of your life chances are hundreds if not thousands of the animals lives you have eaten were lived in total abject misery, with a brutal and scary death. Deal with it. Coming back with some argument that some or most of the animals were treated nicely etc. just makes you look guilt ridden.

^^ Expecting the reply to this to be a bunch of manly talk about killing things etc.