Bit Rate Debate

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

24 or 32 bit. Noticeable difference?

yes
5
14%
no
31
86%
 
Total votes: 36

knotkranky
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by knotkranky » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:46 pm

SubFunk wrote:
chris vine wrote:+2 subfunk

it comes down to ears in the end - or even in the beginning.

The tech specs fill in the knowledge gaps later......IMHO of course.......... although I have changed methods after reading technical articles at times.
don't get me wrong, technical knowledge and also the quality and technical specs of equipment do make a difference of what we can achieve sonically, sure thing, i just needed to vent, because all to often for to many people it seems technical issues are coming before they even reached the maximum with what they can actually achieve simply via using there damn god given ears and to train them properly first...

we are all to spoiled. drifting into technical wanking rather then developing skills with what we got.

end of rant (pt2)
+1 to that. Just forget about it.

Besides, anybody hearing a difference isn't really hearing a difference.

I mean I just washed my car the other day and now it runs better. Happens every time.

Tone Deft
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:16 pm

the OP was just wondering if he had to redo some work. he's dealing with dozens of songs. perfectly OK question to ask.

as for the tech side, it's fun to know what's up. the ones who are relying on techshit and not using their ears are in the 'Spectrum screws up my mixes' threads.


Tarekith wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
Tarekith wrote:32 bit files have the same dynamic range as 24bit files, the extra 8 bits are just there in case you go over 0dBFS. Quick and simple answer.

I'd doubt ANYONE can hear the difference between 24 and 32 bit.
don't think so Mr. T.

by your logic 24 bit files have no headroom?

proportionally they have the same amount of headroom.

even by your definition 32 bit files have more dynamic range, headroom is counted in dynamic range because it's the range of values the audio level can have.
I was under the impression from various reads that a 24bit file and a 32bit both use 24 bits of precision (ie, approx 144dB), however the 32bit file uses the extra 8 bits as part of the floating point calculations. It's these extra 8 bits of FP processing that can allow you to technically go over 0dBFS without clipping. I'm basing this off of information from threads like this:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/masterin ... float.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/masterin ... jects.html

I fully admit I'm no math whiz though (the word cosine makes me run for the hills), so if my laymans explanation is lacking somehow, I'd love some clarification.
the guy who said they use the same 24 bits on KVR was wrong, a lot of the other posters had good info.

first off, it's all arbitrary, there is no standard to adhere to and Live's headroom and technical specs in that area aren't published. even their white papers leave this out, they're not really white papers, they're more tutorials. good info, not what I was hoping for.

aaaanyway... the straightforward way to design something is to say that it has 'x'dB of headroom, regardless of bit depth. suppose that's 10dB of headroom. with 24 and 32 bit words that's going to be a different number of bits but it's not just the top 8.

Live probably normalizes for just a few dB of headroom, maybe 3dB or less, I don't know.

is that enough of an explanation without getting into the math and stuff? cool thing is, once you do the math a few times the concepts become clear and you don't have to do the math anymore. I know you know the concepts, does this help? FWIW my whole college experience was math, literally thousands of pages of math homework, shit, I can't do ANY of that anymore, but the concepts stuck.
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ethios4
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by ethios4 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:17 pm

If only Live allowed 64 bit files I know I could get some music signed!

SubFunk
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by SubFunk » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:26 pm

@ Tone Deft,

i know the question is perfectly alright, i also apologized for ranting here, it just came over me after yesterday nights experience...

i am sorry again, don't want to mess up this thread.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:35 pm

I totally get where you're coming from, just adding my $0.02. it drives me nuts when the FOH mixer screws up a concert. it makes you want to go to the booth and bitch slap someone, "seriously, you don't hear how that sounds AWFUL?!?!?!?!?!!! why are you here?!?!?!?"
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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SubFunk
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by SubFunk » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:42 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I totally get where you're coming from, just adding my $0.02. it drives me nuts when the FOH mixer screws up a concert. it makes you want to go to the booth and bitch slap someone, "seriously, you don't hear how that sounds AWFUL?!?!?!?!?!!! why are you here?!?!?!?"
yeah, especially if they stare at there smaart screen and scratch there head, because they don't understand why it still sounds shite. even smaart tells them: oi, mate it's all flat n' good here. :roll:
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knotkranky
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by knotkranky » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:59 pm

SubFunk wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I totally get where you're coming from, just adding my $0.02. it drives me nuts when the FOH mixer screws up a concert. it makes you want to go to the booth and bitch slap someone, "seriously, you don't hear how that sounds AWFUL?!?!?!?!?!!! why are you here?!?!?!?"
yeah, especially if they stare at there smaart screen and scratch there head, because they don't understand why it still sounds shite. even smaart tells them: oi, mate it's all flat n' good here. :roll:
Agreed. Computers and graphs have the eyes too engaged now and has allowed too many dudes with no feel to get involved when they shouldn't be. And It wasn't long ago when you couldn't view squat. Like tape vs waveforms. It changes things and waters down the capable engineer pool.

ps - what I mean by shouldn't be is in a position like FOH where it's high responsibility and high pay.
It is great for anyone who wants to get involved quickly which of course is great.
Last edited by knotkranky on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funky shit
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Re: Bit Rate Debate

Post by funky shit » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:08 pm

McQ714 wrote:
Tarekith wrote:
McQ714 wrote:can't we use more RAM if we record at 32-bit? when will Live be able to record at 64-bit?
You're mixing up two different things. Once is processing resolution (ie, Live's 64-bit audio engine), and the other is a storage format (ie, 24bit wav, 32bit floating point wav, etc).

i was joking!!!

where's Fun Fun Friday???
at least i enjoyed it :lol:
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