difference CPU-usage reported in Live and real usage

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headquest
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:32 am
Location: UK

Post by headquest » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:25 pm

Frank Hoffmann wrote:The Live CPU meter does only display the audio load of the engine and not the overall CPU useage of Live. There are many other threads involved, which run in lower priority. So basically it is only an indicator for how much audio power is left.

Best,
Frank
In that case I don't understand why I get audio dropouts when Live's CPU meter is running at around 65%... can you explain how this makes sense?

Also, is anything yet being done about the issues raised in the other thread referenced - i.e. the fact that Live seems to use around 50% more CPU per VST added than other programs I use?

I'm still at a stage where, having come to Live at v.4, I'm falling back on my previous sequencer (Tracktion) because Live 4 is unusable to me in its present state (due to CPU overload).

Grateful for any response 8)

Frank Hoffmann
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:01 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarter

Post by Frank Hoffmann » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:35 pm

headquest wrote:
Frank Hoffmann wrote:The Live CPU meter does only display the audio load of the engine and not the overall CPU useage of Live. There are many other threads involved, which run in lower priority. So basically it is only an indicator for how much audio power is left.

Best,
Frank
In that case I don't understand why I get audio dropouts when Live's CPU meter is running at around 65%... can you explain how this makes sense?

Also, is anything yet being done about the issues raised in the other thread referenced - i.e. the fact that Live seems to use around 50% more CPU per VST added than other programs I use?

I'm still at a stage where, having come to Live at v.4, I'm falling back on my previous sequencer (Tracktion) because Live 4 is unusable to me in its present state (due to CPU overload).

Grateful for any response 8)
You are welcome.

I made a test with Tracktion 1.6.0.1. I compared it with Live 4.1 under same conditions... In Live I was able to install 7 Korg MS 20 without drop outs playing a single monophonic melody, in Tracktion only 6.

Next I've tried Linplug Alpha where I could play 6 instances/tracks in Tracktion with small 5 note chords in each. In Live I got the same result with 9 instances/tracks. Tracktion was displaying ca 40% CPU and got some drop-outs.

I am using a powerful G5 here, a m-audio fw 410 and I have set a acceptable latency of 128 samples. I invite everybody to redo the test. Live is optimized for low latencies, with higher latencies you might get other results for plug-ins. We are working to get better results with plug-ins with high latencies.

And by the way I got regularily drop outs with traction with a CPU load around 60% on the tracktion CPU meter. This is nothing special, because the CPU meter doesn't display exact measures. If it would, it would flicker like crazy. What you experience are CPU spikes. These happen when CPU usage is not balanced. This can easily happen when many notes are started at the same time.

I've also noticed that tracktion was using always a little bit more cpu overall time (not the audio time that is displayed in the applications).

To come back to your case, I guess you use very different latency settings for the applications. This can make a huge difference.

Frank
Frank Hoffmann
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headquest
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Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:32 am
Location: UK

Post by headquest » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:16 pm

Thanks very much Frank for such a quick response and for taking the time to investigate the issue I raised.

Your reply is very interesting, as you appear to have used a very different set-up to me, and obtained very different (opposite!) results...

The biggest difference in the setup is that I am on Windows XP, not Mac. It would be intersting to investigate further whether the different results can be related to this. Does most Ableton testing get done on Macs as a first port of call, and could this explain the paradox?

I must also state up-front that my tests were done prior to the recent update, i.e. using Live 4.0.4. I realise that various bugs have been fixed and was pleased to read in the forum here that audio click/pops aren't happening as before. This is good news. Might the improvements in v.4.1 also account for the improved CPU results you acheived?

Regarding Tracktion, Jules (the developer) and Mackie always stress the cross-platform nature of the product but I suspect that the Mac version may perform less well than on Windows, based on the figures you give. I am surprised by your Tracktion results given the power of your G5. On my WinXP laptop I can take the CPU meter up to around 85% without any audio drop-out, which seems significantly better than the results on Mac that you report. Curious...! Also as previously stated I can load around 50% more VSTs for similar results. I need to quantify this more precisely as you have, and will try the good-old Ambience Test!

Of course Tracktion also has a freeze (which I wasn't using) with which I can load up loads more stuff. Perhaps Live will have freeze in a later update?

Regarding latency, I started out with a latency of around 288 samples, which is mid-range on my Edirol UA-20 UBS 1.1 interface. This setting had been acceptable when previously using Tracktion and Reason, although it's worth noting that my typical workflow is to start off by scoring in Sibelius 3 and then importing MIDI rather than recording in via a keyboard (which I tend mostly to use only for audio recording) so latency is rarely a big problem for me.

Because of the issues I was having I increased the audio-buffer to a latency of 1440 samples to see if this would free up CPU. The results were actually not as significant as I thought they would be.

I can reduce latency to 144 samples minimum according to Live's options menu.

What I will now try is to use this minimum latency, with version 4.1, and see if this produces a noticeable improvement in overall performance. I will report back in due course and let you know how I get on!

Thanks again 8)

Frank Hoffmann
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:01 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarter

Post by Frank Hoffmann » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:00 am

Hi Headquest,

Let me straight some things out.

We test on Mac and on PC. I've tested on Mac by coincident. I thought it makes sence, because many people complain that we are faster on PC than on Mac, which is simply not true.

With lower latencies you don't get a better performance in Live, but you get a better performance in comparision to other hosts. Higher latencies are annoying when you try to play a instrument in a host. On the other hand higher latencies make your host more robust against performance peaks and therefore you get less drop-outs.

The newest Update 4.1 has some improvements, but nothing that can explain the difference you experienced.

Your Edirol Interface seems not be suitable for low latencies. I would like to ask you to test with 256 samples latency, if that is an option you get.

Frank
Frank Hoffmann
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headquest
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:32 am
Location: UK

Post by headquest » Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:04 pm

Hi Frank, and thanks for the clarification.

I did an ambience test using the latency setting you suggested. I also repeated the same test in Tracktion 1.6.

For the test I loaded a 16 bar drum loop (audio) into repeated tracks, and measured CPU in Live/Tracktion's own CPU meters (Tracktions are a visual estimate as percentile figures aren't shown) and also using the Windows Task Manager. Results for WTM are shown in brackets.

The results were as follows:

8 drum loops, no Ambience:

Live 4.1: 10% (70%)
Tracktion: 4% (36%)

Add 1st Ambience:

Live 4.1: 52% (100%) - audio still ok
Tracktion: 40% (72%)

Add 2nd Ambience:

Live 4.1: 96% (100%) serious audio drop-outs leading to failure
Tracktion: 75% (95%) no audio problems

Add 3rd Ambience:

Tracktion: 100% Audio failure

Using Tracktion's freeze function I loaded 8 Ambience instances without any problems in CPU overload or audio drop out (although it didn't sound particularly musical!)

My system is WinXP SP2, P4 2.8 Ghz, 512 Mb RAM, 60Gb memory (4200 rpm).

Obviously limitations in my overall system account for not acheiving better oveall results.

However, I think this illustrates the different performance I am acheiving between these programs.

When I bought Live 4 I was planning on moving over to Live as my main sequencing host, but I have now reverted to using Tracktion mostly because of this problem. It is not myh intention to be rude towards Live as a program - there is so much about it I love that this is why I paid out my hard-earned cash for it! But while these problems persist, Live is not very useful on my system at present.

If you have any advice, please get back to me!

Thanks again

headquest
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:32 am
Location: UK

Post by headquest » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:06 pm

Hey!

Frank, you will be pleased to hear that v.4.1.1 seems on first impressions to have cured my issue. I downloaded it on the off-chance that things would have improved, and was imediately surprised to notice that CPU performance seemed to be improved. So I redid my Ambience test, with much better results (similar to my Tracktion results).

So I'm a much happier man now :D

Two things which you may or may not be able to say:
1) will there be a "freeze" function added at some point?
2) will there be PDC added at some point?

Thanks for all your help :)

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