Mixing Desk and Routing, your thoughts please?

[UKRuss]

I don't really run a shoping list as such but one thing keep popping back into me head recently. Getting a 16 channel mixing desk.

I suppose I think of it as analogue and really to use it mix outside the box, long throw faders, nice EQ onboard etc.

What's your experiences boys?

Do you use it to take stuff into Live, or just out from for mixing after recording?

On either, how does your routing work...I am struggling to visualise.

I assume, 16 channel desk equates to 16 channels in and out of live, which means an interface with 16 ins and outs...is that correct?

Or do I just go in to live as I am now through me interface for recording and then 16 outs back through my mixing desk for mixing down?

Why not a combines interface and mixing desk digital stylee I hear you cry, I dunno, you tell me?

better sound from the analogue desk?

What about cheapy desks like Spirit? Cheap on ebay, but worth the money or little advantage to mixing in the box?

[drako]

I don't really run a shoping list as such but one thing keep popping back into me head recently. Getting a 16 channel mixing desk.

I suppose I think of it as analogue and really to use it mix outside the box, long throw faders, nice EQ onboard etc.

What's your experiences boys?

Do you use it to take stuff into Live, or just out from for mixing after recording?

On either, how does your routing work...I am struggling to visualise.

I assume, 16 channel desk equates to 16 channels in and out of live, which means an interface with 16 ins and outs...is that correct?

Depending on your mixer specs, you can route back to ableton if your mixer has a tape out on each chan, but prob with that is most of the time tape out bypasses the eq of the mixing desk.

Or do I just go in to live as I am now through me interface for recording and then 16 outs back through my mixing desk for mixing down?

Yup

Why not a combines interface and mixing desk digital stylee I hear you cry, I dunno, you tell me?

http://www.allen-heath.com/zed/zed-R16.asp

better sound from the analogue desk?

IMHO yes, there is a lot of difference between using a analog circuit (circuit,eq,preamps)it adds 2nd and 3th harmonics, or mixing in the box.
You will work much faster, and gain instant results, if you want to try to "emulate"a analog circuit in a daw, it will take you much time and frustration, and the end result is not pleasing and most of the time not even comparable with the result you get from a desk(depending on a desk of-course)
Oh,and not to forget analog summing.
The benefit of working with eq plugs is, total recall, and more possibilities, it's on you what to choose.
It's all depending on what you like to achieve.
And of-course all a mather of taste.

What about cheapy desks like Spirit? Cheap on ebay, but worth the money or little advantage to mixing in the box?

Cheapo desks can do some good for single sounds to beef em up and record em back into a daw IMHO.
If your realy want to mix out of the box, i would sugest invest some more money.
I already pointed this one out, (i am not working for them tho)
This one integrates nicely with your daw.
http://www.allen-heath.com/zed/zed-R16.asp

[SubFunk]

my take is, that unless you can afford something really, really good like a midas venice 16 channels... it is absolute not worth it to mix outside the box, only reason would be if you need all those mic pres in a cheap desk (having a lot of them, but in mediocre quality), quality wise you will ALWAYS loose, even with a mackie (especially mackie desks of late, they lost quality big time) or something unless you go Midas or better...

about the routing itself... it depends on the desk, for 16 out you need a desk with 16 direct outs... otherwise in a typical 16 channel board you will have 4-6 busses... and a few aux you could route directly into the board...

typically (one of dozens of ways!) is to go simultaneous with you sources and mics into the desk and with as many busses into a DAC (at least 4 channels independent) that is just one method if you need to track a lot simultaneously... a better solution would be going adat.

basically to explain all the possibilities a desk gives you, i would have to write a book, seriously... it so depends what you want to do... and what sort of desk you are looking into... there are desk more designed for FOH or studio or broadcasts, all usually giving you very different routing options amounts of aux ways... direct outs, etc.

however... any desk under the quality of a venice and the XL4 pres in that desk, is a downgrade to what you can achieve with a good DAC and decent pres in a box.

or be more specific what you want to do... it sounds a bit like you just fancy a desk for the sake of being cool and analog...???

analog mixers are great, but with the high quality of plugs and affordable DAC you need to spend some serious money throughout the whole signal chain, in order that it makes any sense...

[SubFunk]

in short, spend your money on some real nice DAC and Pres instead.

[UKRuss]

This one integrates nicely with your daw.
http://www.allen-heath.com/zed/zed-R16.asp

That, is really, really, nice!

With this as it is essentially a soundcard too, I could sell my Ultralite to assist in payment...I am tempted with that!

SubF, no, no, I am a little too old to be seeking 'cool' nowadays. No, I genuinely feel I am more of a tactile guy, i get better results from synths when i can twiddle the knobs on the box, I guess I genuinely feel i can probably get better results mixing on something that is designed for the job, and I think it would be mroe fun to ride those faders and tweak those knobs.

but what you are saying is that even with something like this A+H, It will still sound better in the box unless i go really crazy upmarket with an expensive desk?

I don't want to compromise quality for the sake of a few knobs, but if it's six of one and half a dozen of the other then I'd prefer a desk to mix on.

[UKRuss]

in short, spend your money on some real nice DAC and Pres instead.

I do hear that, but I am defintely not in the Avalon mic-pre price range...what kind of DAC do you suggest? Does it really make much difference to the listener or is it really just an engineer/producer thing?

Ain't no way my wife can tell the difference between vocals recorded through my Motu and those recorded through an Avalon pre...

[SubFunk]

in short, spend your money on some real nice DAC and Pres instead.

I do hear that, but I am defintely not in the Avalon mic-pre price range...what kind of DAC do you suggest? Does it really make much difference to the listener or is it really just an engineer/producer thing?

Ain't no way my wife can tell the difference between vocals recorded through my Motu and those recorded through an Avalon pre...

to be honest, it's more a engineer / producer / freak thing... there are reasons for using extreme top gear like latency for a guitar player noise floor, if you need things like word clock or adat to integrate in your system, all balanced connections... etc. but a good produced end product will not show immediately or better said necessarily the difference between an apogee or benchmark DAC and a motu ultralite.... you used.

honestly, i use a lot of the mega fancy stuff... at work, there are things i would never buy for my home studio... because i can't get better results that justify the investment...

and yes, i say that it is better to buy a very good DAC like RME, Metric Halo, Apogee, Benchmark and maybe one or two extra super fancy Pres...

to get a serious analog wow sound, is taking up way to much money... IMHO.

there are also a few general things to take into account:

1, general harmony and quality of the signal chain, i have seen people using apogee cards and dynaudio monitors and NS 10s and then using a behringer DI box to record or a behringer monitor switch...??? (includes quality cabling!!!)

2, on a very high level of gear and if you do recording of analog sources and mics, the power condition... very expensive if done properly, so it makes sense... and in normal housing usually dodgy as hell and it will effect all the sensitive gear even more...


just a few things to keep in mind...

the new Metric Halo stuff is top and has some serious DSP integrated for very good mixdowns...
if you need a hands on feel, which i totally understand... buy a euphonix or mackie controller....

[UKRuss]

OK, I do see that.

So you say, just a midi controller upgrade to something with a bit more knobs and fader control, for the mixing and keep everything else as is, with one eye on upgrading preamps at some stage...

[SubFunk]

OK, I do see that.

So you say, just a midi controller upgrade to something with a bit more knobs and fader control, for the mixing and keep everything else as is, with one eye on upgrading preamps at some stage...

basically yes, but hey it's my opinion... i've seen a lot of waisted money... i think for a home / budget studio it's the best, especially in our days, with so extremely good software, powerful computers and top class DACs around...

i just bought a metric halo channel strip, to get something better in analog, i would have to spend about 4-5 times as much... i don't see the point, unless i would run a big commercial studio and need / want the extra top 5% of increase in quality and the i impress my clients with loads of boxes bonus...

check other opinions as well!!!

[UKRuss]

No need my friend, you speak the sense I needed to hear.

I shall think on the best midi controller box for mixing instead!

[SubFunk]

No need my friend, you speak the sense I needed to hear.

I shall think on the best midi controller box for mixing instead!

if you can euphonix... if you are on a mac that is.... (another reason why mac! the eucon protocol)

and treat yourself with a nice pre... and mics and or instruments, money way better spend...

maybe PM Rave, he has a euphonix... and can tell you about the integration in ableton, for logic and PT it's perfect, absolute perfect.
the MC-5 mix spreads in studios more and more... complete big desk control for your DAW... yummy, you don't even realize everything is happening in the box with that desk...

the MC mix and MC control is what you want to look into http://www.euphonix.com/artist/

cheaper are now the mackies, they dropped heavy in price... though...

[UKRuss]

Pretty toys them Euphonix! Whoaaaaaa.

I need more info on the Live integration but damn it looks smart!

I'm pretty happy with the Motu for the DAC, and instrument wise I'm pretty sorted.

What about decent mics for instrument/amp recording?

and....ok, go on then, pres....whats the go at the mo?

[SubFunk]

Pretty toys them Euphonix! Whoaaaaaa.

I need more info on the Live integration but damn it looks smart!

I'm pretty happy with the Motu for the DAC, and instrument wise I'm pretty sorted.

What about decent mics for instrument/amp recording?

and....ok, go on then, pres....whats the go at the mo?

what kinda mic, i mean purpose?

one of my all time large condenser fave is a ADK Vienna with the brick pre amp (it's the name of the pre 'the brick'), a dream combination and fairly (actually very) cheap for what you get compared to a let's say a neumann plus avalon or chandler or something...

there are other good pres... but it's a bit about what type / purpose mic you want and do you like character / colour or clean sound?

i am a character / colour fan, i can't stand clean stuff, that is why i hate yamaha consoles... they are sterile like a hospital... URRGHH.

generally shure and rode for my taste does some interesting stuff, always keeping in mind what your goal is... there are many others who have interesting models, AKG, Audio Technica, Sennheiser... i mean i don't think it's news to you... so defining what you want to record... makes it easier... guitar cabinets? vox? allrounder?

the euphonix is top... i have worked once on the MC-5 control you really don't feel the box anymore... about how good it is with ableton , you should check... (check with rave maybe he has a euphonix, i don't know if the control or mix... but he can probably chime in... )
i still use logic for all my more 'traditional' studio related work... love Live way, way more for writing... though...

and i will check a friend, he has a good tip about a small english made pre (he has it, but i forgot the make), that is considered to be a top all rounder (but very clean / neutral sounding) and is used by pink floyd, radiohead and such... and apparently dead cheap for what it is...

[UKRuss]

I've got a Rode NT1A which is ncie for what I use it for , some vox some acoustic instrument recording, some ambient far mic stuff on amps.

Dynamics I need but I'm thinking of going stock with the shure sm57.

A nice pre is a good idea, but I do wonder if I'll really get that much more out of it than my Motu...

[SubFunk]

I've got a Rode NT1A which is ncie for what I use it for , some vox some acoustic instrument recording, some ambient far mic stuff on amps.

Dynamics I need but I'm thinking of going stock with the shure sm57.

A nice pre is a good idea, but I do wonder if I'll really get that much more out of it than my Motu...

if you use mics, then a good pre will bump the sound more then a better DAC (at least from the level you are at, unless it's staright to apogee or benchmark, still a good pre can make a big jump)

also, keep in mind that a pre is often a character enhancement... and does have it's chemistry with a certain mic, ever wondered why big studios not only have one type of pre?

so a combi can just give a real different sound... and a SM 57 is still a must standard have in my books, it's only about a hundred euros...

if you have the chance and you want a good large diaphragm mic, good for vox, cabinets (if not to much level is blasting) ambience / room mic, then i love the ADK Vienna plus the brick. FTW and cheap-ish (the mic is around 350 euros and the brick around 500 dollar)