Preset saving, MfL device copying

[cassiel.com]

OK, so I load in a Max Device from disk, and save my Live Set file. So far so good.

Now I "Collect All and Save" - the Max Device is copied into the project, and I have the option to freeze it. (I've already posted that I'd favour an option where Max Devices are not copied, but that's a different issue.)

So now I save a preset for my Max Device. The preset goes into the Live Library - which strikes me as rather odd, since I treat the library as read-only and expect things to be saved in the project itself. (Collect All and Save doesn't apply to presets.)

The Max Device itself also get copied into the library, alongside any earlier versions. It is now locked there in that presets are associated with this instance. If I load the Max Device from my source tree, it's a different kind of device and the presets cannot be loaded into it. What's more, if I drag the original to the Trash and then try to load a preset, Live will happily load the device from the Trash, even though it can't browse to it.

I don't have a clear concept of how Max Devices and presets are supposed to be managed, since Live seems to want to copy them around rather arbitrarily (from source directory to project and then to library) and doesn't let me associate presets with projects or with what I consider to be the "same" device (I get duplicates in the library named "device-1" and so on).

If Max Devices have to live in the library (allowing them to be shared between projects, I suppose), then why does Collect All and Save put them into the project at all?

-- N.

[synnack]

Devices and Presets are stored in the library so they can be shared easily across projects as you noted.

They should be stored with a project if you "collect and save" for portability reasons. So that you can "collect and save" then backup that project folder. Then 3 years later you can open that project even if you don't work on the same library.

Same goes for sharing the set with someone else. If "collect and save" didn't take the max device then it would be more of a pain to zip up a project folder and send it to someone else.

[Poster]

I would like to hear an official statement on how MFL devices and their presets supposed to be managed/stored/handled..

for instance; the moment you start to drag around .amxd devices in your library,
the .adv presets belonging to those MFl devices lose their reference path to the original MFL device..

I can see huge problems when your preset folders are growing and growing and one day you decide to rearrange stuff..
Then older Live sets are suddenly missing reference paths to .amxd files..

Or if you move a .amxd file inside the library without moving the belonging .adv files with it..
instant broken reference paths..

[stringtapper]

Seems like there's still some conceptual woodshedding in order regarding use of the [preset] object versus creating presets through Live's device preset handling.

[cassiel.com]

Devices and Presets are stored in the library so they can be shared easily across projects as you noted.

They should be stored with a project if you "collect and save" for portability reasons.

I'm pretty sure - I'd have to check - that the Max Device was in the Project, but then got copied into the Library when I saved the first preset (which also went to the library). Then "Collect All and Save" brings a copy of the device back into the Project... where I now have two of them.

What I'm missing here is a clear model of how to do ongoing development of an instrument or effect if its identity (in the preset sense) migrates around between an ever growing set of incompatible copies of the original. I feel a need for a "reconcile preset" function.

[cassiel.com]

Seems like there's still some conceptual woodshedding in order regarding use of the [preset] object versus creating presets through Live's device preset handling.

Max's "preset" object has been ropey and somewhat deprecated for a while - I don't know how, or if, it fits into Live's preset model. I know there's some support for the pattr machinery, but so far I've just been using Live UI objects and getting the preset storage from Live itself.

[zicarell]

The Max preset object does not work with Live's preset mechanism, and never will. It saves data either in a patcher or in its own files. If you are going to manage state via Live then you need to use parameter-aware pattr objects or live.xxx objects.

The "new copy of a device for each preset" syndrome can be avoided if the device is stored inside the Library somewhere. At least that is what Ableton promised a while ago; not sure if it's been implemented yet. Maybe someone else knows more than I do.

[cassiel.com]

The "new copy of a device for each preset" syndrome can be avoided if the device is stored inside the Library somewhere. At least that is what Ableton promised a while ago; not sure if it's been implemented yet. Maybe someone else knows more than I do.

Live seems to allow me to load presets for Foo into Foo, Foo-1, Foo-2 etc. - correctly, I would say - but not into Bar - also correctly. So it can tell Fooiness from Bariness, and yet it does seem to generate duplicates.

Also, devices get frozen without my say-so.

I'm going to do a pile of investigation of this to try and understand what I think Live thinks it thinks I'm thinking when I do this stuff.

[Trevor being Trevor]

for instance; the moment you start to drag around .amxd devices in your library,
the .adv presets belonging to those MFl devices lose their reference path to the original MFL device..

This issue still remains in Live 11 today to some degree. As soon as you move the .amxd file all your presets lose their path. The current process for solving the issue is...

1. Try and use the preset and get the error message in the device view
2. Press "Manage Device File" and then point it back to the .amxd file
3. Save the preset and overwrite the old one

This works fine on a small scale, but could be at least a days worth of work on a large scale. It's also clunky trying to share device presets with people. In my case, I don't want to bundle presets with my Max for Live device for fear they will break as soon as the user moves the .axmd file into their library.

Does anybody know any better approaches for this? I'm curious if there is a way to open the .adv file and update the path manually or update these paths on a larger scale.