Electronic Music SUCKS!!!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
supster
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:26 am
Location: Orlando FL

Post by supster » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:25 pm

ethios4 wrote:digital resolution/discrete nature of digital.... but the signal is reproduced by analog speakers. Wouldn't speakers smooth out the digital "stairsteps" thus making it continuous? Seems like once you get up to a certain sampling rate and bit-depth, all thats missing is the analog imperfections, which can be modelled.
yes, exactly, all true ... most 'digital is not real' puriests are mainly posturing elitists ;)

IMO
--
NEW SPECS: Athlon 4200+ dual; A8N-SLI m/b; Win XP Home SP2; 1 GB RAM; 2x 7200 RPM HDD: 1 internal, 1 Firewire 800 (Firewire is project data drive); M-Audio Triggerfinger

josh 'vonster' von; tracks and sets
http://www.joshvon.com

basetwo
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:33 pm
Location: COLORADO

Post by basetwo » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:33 pm

ethios4 wrote:
kennerb wrote: "David once you put a microphone in front of something it's all electronic."

Thats great! My "hippie" friends often dog on electronic music for being digital and electronic and i have to point out that 99.999% of the music we hear is electronic whether its on CD, vinyl, mp3, or live through a PA. Eric Johnson is every bit as digital as Autchre, from the sound reproduction standpoint. Now i know thats not what they are getting at, but i still think its a valid point - we've already agreed to allow digital music into our lives, so to block out some music because it has a digital/electronic source is an arbitrary line and seems to me more than a bit sentimental.
To take things a step further...

The more you put "in the chain", the less "true" the sound is. Even if I mic up my violin and go analog all the way to the speakers (mic, console, amp, speaker) the sound coming out of the speaker is not truly accurate. Even analog circuitry takes a (albiet) small amount of time to react to a signal being applied to it. No microphone is going to capture every nuance of the strings acting with the body and resonance chamber to give us the sound of a violin. A 12" speaker creates sound differently than the strings and body of the violin, etc....

All that to say that while it's nice to have sounds close to what it really sounds like, it will never be truly "accurate". The only way to get accurate is to be close to the acoustic instrument being played in real time IN PERSON. We should accept instrumentation of any kind for what it is and whether or not we like the sound... not whether or not it's accurate.

Frankly I'm glad it's that way, because the sound of a full orchestra in a concert hall would never be accurately reproduced enough to get the WOW factor you have from actually being there.

IMHO! :wink:
The question is not whether or not you are influenced, but rather what it is that influences you.
-----
Gigabyte GA-K8NS Ultra-939/AMD 64
Seagate 80Gb/Samsung 120Gb SATA
1GB RAM/Delta 66/Firebox
32bit WinXP

chrysalis33rpm
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:56 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by chrysalis33rpm » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:49 pm

mike holiday wrote:
MrYellow wrote: For example more flexible tempos and better sequencer features for
dealing with it. Live bands vary tempo a great deal, from verse to verse,
chorus etc etc. It really does make the experience more enjoyable and
before you say dance music has to be constant, it's better to dance too as
well when suspense is being built via tempo changes.

-Ben
umm how the heck could you beatmix a track that changed tempo??
It's not done that much, but you can certainly beatmix a track that changes tempo, using two turntables. What you have to do first is let go of the DJ's fixation curse of believing that music must never change tempo and the beat must be constant. This is difficult, because we are taught from the very first thing that our primary job is to keep the beat steady and count to four. Important skill, but boring if you let it get the better of you. After that, use your hands and your pitch control, your platters- don't be afraid to really ride the record, or drag it, tweak it. It takes practice, I'm not saying its easy or pretending to be that great at it, but watch a master turntablist like Kid Koala or MixMaster Mike. They say Mike doesn't even need to turn his decks on- his hands can keep it steady, round and round.

Turntables are soundgenerating instruments, with a twist: the sound they generate is pre-recorded! Live bands play with tempo, stretching and compacting it. We DJs could learn a thing or two from them. Turntables have a great deal of the "haptic" quality that others in this thread were musing on above. They are already one way that the 'live' feeling and energy can get put back into electronic music.

Most of my own experience attempting this sort of thing comes from playing with live bands- I'll often play drum brakes along with them, and when they change tempo- WHOA! I try to follow. But it doesn't make a difference if your other sound source if another turntable, a band, a laptop, or all of the above.

mike holiday
Posts: 2433
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:52 pm
Location: NOW

Post by mike holiday » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:29 pm

believe me my hand never leaves the pitch fader...i'm beyond controlling tempo with my fingers on the platter..and tempo changes hapen in my set...however they are dictated by me and never happen by being programed in the track...
mearly saying that this is the dj's descretion...and electronic tracks made for dj's that change tempo are gonna bet tossed aside (unless you are a dj who doesn't beatmix, and today nobody in the crowd knows or cares(wich to me is a little sad))
I'v found some tracks that have a miss calculated edit in the track that thows the tempo off,even though i liked the track...can't play it. when mixing on three decks this can be horrable sounds like sombody bumped the tables

but in the transision between mixes it is easy to change tempo....helps with buid ups
it is all about the Dj being able to take it to the next level (some do and alot dont)

MrYellow
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:10 am
Contact:

Post by MrYellow » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:41 am

http://moglen.law.columbia.edu/CPC/arch ... 1SCHE.html

Just ran into this searching for Boomish stuff.....
Covers a lot of the things we've mentioned here...

-Ben

Spacerboy
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:35 am

:-)

Post by Spacerboy » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:19 am

I AM AMAZED!

Thank you all for these wonderful thoughts!
Maybe once the digital way of electronic will be really revolutionized...

Spacy

rensonic
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:43 am
Location: North Miami Beach, FL
Contact:

Post by rensonic » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:52 am

MrYellow, thanks so much for that link. Very interesting stuff! 8)
Ren Montiel
paper city | day job

MrYellow
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:10 am
Contact:

Post by MrYellow » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:16 am

Has turned into a good thread eh... Could have just been like a catfight
but we're actually moving into stuff which looks at how we can get more
from our computers..... Maybe by the time it's died out there will be a few
new additions to the Live feature wishlist even.

-Ben

raapie
Posts: 1035
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:13 am
Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Contact:

...

Post by raapie » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:57 pm

MrYellow, that's a great article.

When Live introduced Live4 I was hoping they implemented VSTi support in the same way as they implemented Rewire: as audio-module so everything you record, you're recording as audio.

But unfortunetely Ableton didn't implement it this way. So when you want to record VSTi's as audio, you need to set up a midi and audio track for it. A little extra work.

I personally am not a fan in general of MIDI, quantizing and grindlines. This really makes music sound super, super dull. The best rhythms are playing around the beats, not deadly on it in such an even and quantised manner.

And yes, it makes us lazy as well.

I do believe making music takes serious practice and devotion. Music shouldn't be simply adding a couple of loops to a grid line... at least not for me. I'd like to hear the person behind it, the soul behind the music. Mixing up pre-recorded stuff can sound nice, but you can not call it your music. It's your mix sure, but you're hearing the soul of other people. And yes, that can be nice ;)
Marco Raaphorst

music, sound & story maker

https://melodiefabriek.com

Amberience
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:09 am
Location: London, UK

Post by Amberience » Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:02 pm

hehe. Whenever people proclaim that analog is superior to digital, I get images running through my head.

Images of crowds of people surrounding a storyteller in a village square. The storyteller is perched on the village well, the only source of water to the people. He is playing a flute as he waits for the crowd to silence, hoping that he'll be able to tell a good enough story and provide a good enough distraction from real life that people will pay him in loaves of bread and legs of ham.

....Grow up you analog purists. :lol:

basetwo
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:33 pm
Location: COLORADO

Post by basetwo » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:21 pm

The last lines of the article: "Nothing can replace a live orchestra, flesh on catgut."

My point exactly! :wink:

I've been trained on violin playing classical music. I've fiddled, I've been in a marching band on trombone, and I love computers. I love digital sounds as much as the acoustic sound of a cello or violin. Each sound has it's place and when you can appreciate each one for what it gives and structure those sounds to achieve the communication you desire, you're there!
The question is not whether or not you are influenced, but rather what it is that influences you.
-----
Gigabyte GA-K8NS Ultra-939/AMD 64
Seagate 80Gb/Samsung 120Gb SATA
1GB RAM/Delta 66/Firebox
32bit WinXP

Spacerboy
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:35 am

Post by Spacerboy » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:17 am

Amberience wrote:hehe. Whenever people proclaim that analog is superior to digital, I get images running through my head.

Images of crowds of people surrounding a storyteller in a village square. The storyteller is perched on the village well, the only source of water to the people. He is playing a flute as he waits for the crowd to silence, hoping that he'll be able to tell a good enough story and provide a good enough distraction from real life that people will pay him in loaves of bread and legs of ham.

....Grow up you analog purists. :lol:

Did you ever try Korg Legacy Collections MS20? And did you ever compare it to the original? I guess no...

Legacy MS20 is so bad sounding that it can´t even be true. if they call this MS20 they should for example really think about that!
Digital will never reach Analog! Thats the truth!

The same with CD and LP --> LP sounds just better, warmer, nicer!

spacy

jahnlay
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: Johannesburg

Post by jahnlay » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:27 pm

Who's the idiot who posts that Britney Spears isn't electronic? Have you been into a studio and seen how pop is made? Of course it's electronic! Music is music, it requires the same skillz, whether you're good at playing the instrument or good at programming, and electronic music rules!!!! :D
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"

Post Reply