presentation default

[nq]

the way it opens now. it works like the regular max/msp which also opens in patching mode.
and to be honest. i never really use presentation mode. cmd+K/L usually does the trick for me.and i guess a lot of people, who come from a max-version without presentation mode work this way. at least the ones i know. it's way more quicker than to tos little bits and sprites around to make stuff ook neat.
What is the problem, to just check „open in presentation mode"?

[nq]

and to be honest. i think there are way more severe tasks to solve than this with the beta.

[posssu]

I see, now it seems to work... is there any way to make "Open in presentation" a default for all the new patches?

[stringtapper]

I find it that patching mode and presentation mode are mixed in a way now, making the actual presentation mode a bit useless...

I don't think it's useless if you consider the type of usage that the devs have already laid out in some of their example patches: Presentation mode is for the GUI, Patching mode is to show how the patch works.

This doesn't mean you have to use it that way. In your case you don't need Presentation mode at all. You can just make your GUI with Patching mode. In this way I feel they have already made it as flexible as possible without making any substantial choices for the user.

[synnack]

Thanks for all the replies. It seems this has been discussed extensively by engineering and the decision already made to uncheck this option by default.

From a Max perspective, I understand why. For newbies, who edit a patch, they would be confused when none of it shows up on the ableton device if we forced them to add controls manually to presentation mode by enabling "open in presentation mode" by default.

I still believe though that it is MORE confusing to newbies that without "open in presentation mode" checked, which is not an obvious option to a beginner, there will be no effective difference between patching and presentations modes. Either way the Ableton device looks the same to them.

I think that's a way more confusing default but I do agree with the comment made that there are way more important problems than this.

[roberwic]

I think that it is also important to note that having patches open in patching mode by default will make it much easier to do live patching. personally I would hate having to click the little presentation mode button every time I want to do live patching. Keeping everything in patching mode allows quick and easy access to the guts of patches.

[posssu]

I still believe though that it is MORE confusing to newbies that without "open in presentation mode" checked, which is not an obvious option to a beginner, there will be no effective difference between patching and presentations modes. Either way the Ableton device looks the same to them.

That's precisely what I experienced.

[djod]

I still believe though that it is MORE confusing to newbies that without "open in presentation mode" checked, which is not an obvious option to a beginner, there will be no effective difference between patching and presentations modes. Either way the Ableton device looks the same to them.

That's precisely what I experienced.

+1

there seams to be two kinds of people beginners and advanced users.
I think that MFL will attract a lot of noobs (like me) and confusing them to begin with is not very wise. I guess its better to guide them.
Maybe Something Like This? http://dwarfurl.com/d89984 (is an amxb)

Advanced users should ideally have a preference option to switch between open in presentation or not. To them this is peanuts to change.
Or better yet make it possible to have a custom default device. (maybe this is even possible now?)
For beginners on the other hand it will be harder to find. (And you know a lot of people first play around and then open the manual).

[Gregory Taylor]

When it comes to Max, there's no manual to open - the docs are integrated into the application (under the Help menu, as in "Open the "Max Help" window under the help menu and type in Presentation Mode and watch the fun). Anything that gets a new user accustomed to knowing and making use of the online materials when working with something as complex as Max can only be seen as a good thing [unless one is the sort of person who confuses the Zen "Beginner's Mind" with illiteracy and the cultivated helplessness of the sequential patch groveller. I'm sure there's no one here like that].

[djod]

When it comes to Max, there's no manual to open - the docs are integrated into the application (under the Help menu, as in "Open the "Max Help" window under the help menu and type in Presentation Mode and watch the fun). Anything that gets a new user accustomed to knowing and making use of the online materials when working with something as complex as Max can only be seen as a good thing [unless one is the sort of person who confuses the Zen "Beginner's Mind" with illiteracy and the cultivated helplessness of the sequential patch groveller. I'm sure there's no one here like that].

I don't want to take you post personal, but it comes across as patronizing. Trying to explain to me that the docs are not a manual is about words and besides the point. And considering that my native tongues isn't English not very empathic.

To me the problem with the way the default is setup now is that it doesn't do what is expected from what I see in the online movies about mfl on the ableton website. Mfl is presented as a device maker in an ableton styled Graphic manner. I know you can do way more and that is off course very exciting, but this is at the same time an Achilles heel of Max(for live) from the standpoint of a new user. The way the default is setup now is more geared towards the experienced user and freedom of design, but at the cost of being misguiding and counter intuitive to a noob. The open in presentation mode is, for a new user, hidden in the menu.

As a new user I would like to be able to build something simple in my first session that works "as advertised" e.g. as an ableton styled device, this gives a user comfort, satisfaction and energy to dive into the Docs and References (under Help) to go deeper into learning the program and to program.

Now the open in presentation mode gave me a major headache and in my humble opinion for the wrong reasons. Max is daunting enough so giving the new user some guides isn't bad, Ableton live is the example of an Intuitive music production environment, that's one of the big reason for its Succes.

If heavy users can customize the default, what's the big deal of guiding new comers.
For experienced users its easy to "fix" the default, You could even add this version of the default in a folder.
On the other hand it also very easy for potential new users to say "I've tried Max and its very difficult" (for the wrong reasons.)
You can of course say I don't want people like that as my costumers, but I guess that's not the objective.

[stringtapper]

When it comes to Max, there's no manual to open - the docs are integrated into the application (under the Help menu, as in "Open the "Max Help" window under the help menu and type in Presentation Mode and watch the fun). Anything that gets a new user accustomed to knowing and making use of the online materials when working with something as complex as Max can only be seen as a good thing [unless one is the sort of person who confuses the Zen "Beginner's Mind" with illiteracy and the cultivated helplessness of the sequential patch groveller. I'm sure there's no one here like that].

I don't want to take you post personal, but it comes across as patronizing. Trying to explain to me that the docs are not a manual is about words and besides the point. And considering that my native tongues isn't English not very empathic.

To me the problem with the way the default is setup now is that it doesn't do what is expected from what I see in the online movies about mfl on the ableton website. Mfl is presented as a device maker in an ableton styled Graphic manner. I know you can do way more and that is off course very exciting, but this is at the same time an Achilles heel of Max(for live) from the standpoint of a new user. The way the default is setup now is more geared towards the experienced user and freedom of design, but at the cost of being misguiding and counter intuitive to a noob. The open in presentation mode is, for a new user, hidden in the menu.

As a new user I would like to be able to build something simple in my first session that works "as advertised" e.g. as an ableton styled device, this gives a user comfort, satisfaction and energy to dive into the Docs and References (under Help) to go deeper into learning the program and to program.

Now the open in presentation mode gave me a major headache and in my humble opinion for the wrong reasons. Max is daunting enough so giving the new user some guides isn't bad, Ableton live is the example of an Intuitive music production environment, that's one of the big reason for its Succes.

If heavy users can customize the default, what's the big deal of guiding new comers.
For experienced users its easy to "fix" the default, You could even add this version of the default in a folder.
On the other hand it also very easy for potential new users to say "I've tried Max and its very difficult" (for the wrong reasons.)
You can of course say I don't want people like that as my costumers, but I guess that's not the objective.

You're making this too complicated. All one (i.e. a "noob") has to do is simply ignore Presentation Mode until they are to the point that they can make more sophisticated patches on par with the M4L example patches (sophisticated with regard to GUI design, commenting, etc.).

M4L will still work "as advertised" without ever thinking about Presentation Mode. If you don't understand how Presentation Mode fits in (yet), then you probably don't need it (see here for why you might need it).

[djod]

With "as advertised" I mean what is shown in the online Video's. Not in the sense that its not possible, maybe marketed is the word.

So you are assuming its natural to ignore Presentation mode when you expect it to Work? Going from the Movie's that are online now.

Will it be possible to make a custom default patch?, this would be a nice feature anyway.

[stringtapper]

With "as advertised" I mean what is shown in the online Video's. Not in the sense that its not possible, maybe marketed is the word.

So you are assuming its natural to ignore Presentation mode when you expect it to Work? Going from the Movie's that are online now.

What you "expect" is up to you. Presentation Mode does work. Period. Just because you saw a video that shows someone working with a patch in a particular way does not mean that's the Gospel of all ways to work with Max. Max's flexibility, namely the ability to find multiple ways to accomplish something, is its greatest "feature."

[djod]

Your making it about me, I'm not the only one that was confused by this approach.
I'm not taking about gospels, or fixed ways of doing stuff. Its also not about if it works or not.
Its about how a new user gets its first impression.

Maybe its best to make some instruction video for the launch. So that this stuff is just out of the way and people can get there hands dirty right away, without headaches.

[nq]

after all mfl is basically just (uhmm, well) max/msp for live. to be honest, from a max/msp point of view it makes absolutely no sense to start in presentation mode.
simply because you can't work in presentation mode. it's there as a final step.