Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

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stringtapper
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by stringtapper » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
stringtapper wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Whether or not a crime was committed hasn't really been argued against by anybody taking the unpopular side here, what has been argued is that to judge an event 30 years ago by our standards now is pretty lame. At that point all anti authority activity was considered by many worthy of consideration, and in this case, by the girl, Polanski, and by the girls mother. A little hard to grasp for some I'm sure...
Yet Polanski himself probably didn't "grasp" Manson's own form of anti-authority.

Just proves my ongoing point that those who like to break the "rules" usually pussy out when somebody comes along who really likes to breaks the "rules."
What exactly constitutes a rule to you? Do you obey all laws in honor of your ongoing point? Your opinion on the law is strange to me? Everything is black and white is what it reads like.

Again here's my take on the law in comparison:
The more freedom you have, the less protection you have.
The more protection you have, the less freedom you have.

That's the entirety of my take on the law, the ethics of it are nil! The government does not, and never has upheld a standard of morality that I can adhere to, and there's not a fucking thing pussy about using a system that I see as a parasite when it can be used to protect my freedom, and to break any rule I see that doesn't fit into my sense of fair play. In nature animals use parasites all the time for beneficial purposes; in fact you wouldn't be alive or healthy if it weren't for the e-coli in your intestines.

This is for the most part theoretical, as 99% of the laws out there make sense to me. I have little interest in underage girls, dating a 25 year old a few years ago was bad enough. Drugs are a waste of time, if you like them fine, but I'm not interested anymore etc. What I'm saying is for a free thinking person to not cherry pick to a degree makes me think of Brave New World, very distinctly.

There is no system ever, that was so perfectly invasive into the lives of the people as to not have any killers or rapists, it's not even a matter of there being one case where that's true.

All I've argued here is that it's lame that a 30 year old case is going to no doubt hang the guy, and that it's not really logical to judge the case by modern morality. That he was a douche for doing it isn't even a question.
My definition of a "rule" is a standard that humans beings impose on other humans beings to attempt to prevent them from doing things they don't like. This imposition is applied through the use of force of varying degrees.

To me personally, laws only exist as the set of consequences that tend to follow when they are broken. I choose to follow or not follow any of them at will based on how the consequences will affect me. What I won't do is any moral cherry picking here and there about what should or shouldn't be just because it's convenient. I like to stay away from "should." Most of the laws make sense to me too, but I won't let that be a reason to impose my way of thinking on anyone else.

The reason I say people pussy out is because even those who claim to want no rules or governance will almost invariably look to some rule or authority when nature meets them beyond their comfort zone. Most that would rail against governance might consider themselves anarchists to a degree. But put a gun in an anarchist's mouth and what will he do? Most probably he will look to find some authority to try to stop you from pulling the trigger. Of course this is a broad sweeping generalization based on the types of people I have observed who hold such beliefs, but I find this paradox interesting.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:34 pm

stringtapper wrote: My definition of a "rule" is a standard that humans beings impose on other humans beings to attempt to prevent them from doing things they don't like. This imposition is applied through the use of force of varying degrees.

To me personally, laws only exist as the set of consequences that tend to follow when they are broken. I choose to follow or not follow any of them at will based on how the consequences will affect me. What I won't do is any moral cherry picking here and there about what should or shouldn't be just because it's convenient. I like to stay away from "should." Most of the laws make sense to me too, but I won't let that be a reason to impose my way of thinking on anyone else.

The reason I say people pussy out is because even those who claim to want no rules or governance will almost invariably look to some rule or authority when nature meets them beyond their comfort zone. Most that would rail against governance might consider themselves anarchists to a degree. But put a gun in an anarchist's mouth and what will he do? Most probably he will look to find some authority to try to stop you from pulling the trigger. Of course this is a broad sweeping generalization based on the types of people I have observed who hold such beliefs, but I find this paradox interesting.
This is far too big for this thread, and I admit freely to starting off on the side of Polanski as mainly a way to avoid dealing with tax liability issues etc. but at some other point I would love to chat more about the issue of law etc. I have a feeling we're on the same page about it more than not. Though even in an anarchy there would be basic rules, as shown in the cases were there was one for a few years here and there. The main difference is it becomes up to society and the individual to uphold those rules and meter out justice when they are broken, not a cell within a cell we call the government.
You're right though, most people opt for protection over freedom, in fact almost every time.

stringtapper
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by stringtapper » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:51 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
stringtapper wrote: My definition of a "rule" is a standard that humans beings impose on other humans beings to attempt to prevent them from doing things they don't like. This imposition is applied through the use of force of varying degrees.

To me personally, laws only exist as the set of consequences that tend to follow when they are broken. I choose to follow or not follow any of them at will based on how the consequences will affect me. What I won't do is any moral cherry picking here and there about what should or shouldn't be just because it's convenient. I like to stay away from "should." Most of the laws make sense to me too, but I won't let that be a reason to impose my way of thinking on anyone else.

The reason I say people pussy out is because even those who claim to want no rules or governance will almost invariably look to some rule or authority when nature meets them beyond their comfort zone. Most that would rail against governance might consider themselves anarchists to a degree. But put a gun in an anarchist's mouth and what will he do? Most probably he will look to find some authority to try to stop you from pulling the trigger. Of course this is a broad sweeping generalization based on the types of people I have observed who hold such beliefs, but I find this paradox interesting.
This is far too big for this thread, and I admit freely to starting off on the side of Polanski as mainly a way to avoid dealing with tax liability issues etc. but at some other point I would love to chat more about the issue of law etc. I have a feeling we're on the same page about it more than not. Though even in an anarchy there would be basic rules, as shown in the cases were there was one for a few years here and there. The main difference is it becomes up to society and the individual to uphold those rules and meter out justice when they are broken, not a cell within a cell we call the government.
You're right though, most people opt for protection over freedom, in fact almost every time.
Agreed. Too much to go into here, maybe a weekend OT thread sometime.

Just to quickly address the point about an ideal anarchy being about society and the individual upholding the rules instead of a government: I think the distinction is merely window dressing. In each situation the end result is some force applied to impose will, whether it's one person or an army. In the end it doesn't matter to me who's trying to control me, whether it's my next door neighbor or a face on a giant TV, I will resist them both.
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john gordon
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by john gordon » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:33 am

i am outraged,someone needs to crush the usa.

alex.the.forge
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by alex.the.forge » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:45 am

"Dude - you have sex with children!"

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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by Pitch Black » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:56 am

I found this a powerful argument for throwing the book at him.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/fea ... ki_arrest/

ThrowAway
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by ThrowAway » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:42 am

He should be skewered in the ass with a hot poker. Everything I read about this case outside this thread says she repeatedly said no and he continued on doing her anally, vaginally and orally after giving her drugs and alcohol. Every article claims he plead guilty and gave a statement this is how it went down. I hope they put him in san quentin's general population.

stringtapper
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by stringtapper » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:48 am

Pitch Black wrote:I found this a powerful argument for throwing the book at him.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/fea ... ki_arrest/
It is pretty powerful.
Roman Polanski raped a child. And rushing past that point to focus on the reasons why we should forgive him, pity him, respect him, admire him, support him, whatever, is absolutely twisted.
I get the sense that there is something inherently anti-authoritarian and perhaps even anti-American about the attitude of those that rail against his arrest. I think that's why I got off on the tangent about laws. It always seems that some people will fight against something that they normally would not as long as some other force they don't agree with is somehow aligned with it. I doubt most people here would condone child abuse, but it seems that perhaps it's the fact that it's the American government that's doing the prosecuting that is making people look past the actual crime committed.

My question to those who think he shouldn't be held accountable for his actions would be: Do you think no one should be held accountable for any actions? Because I could respect that if it were the case. Complete and total chaos is an intriguing thing to me, however I doubt that it really is to most. I'm talking about a reality where truly horrifying things could happen to you and you would have absolutely no recourse other than what your own personal actions could achieve to reach what you consider justice.

And the flip side of the question would be: Or do you cherry pick what you think people should be accountable for? Polanski goes free according to you, but if the guy down the street rapes your wife you would think that he should be held accountable?
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:30 am

Fecke said it quite well: "I understand the victim's feelings on this. And I sympathize, I do. But for good or ill, the justice system doesn't work on behalf of victims; it works on behalf of justice."

john gordon
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by john gordon » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:53 am

damn.that is a little hardcore...

stringtapper
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by stringtapper » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:04 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Fecke said it quite well: "I understand the victim's feelings on this. And I sympathize, I do. But for good or ill, the justice system doesn't work on behalf of victims; it works on behalf of justice."
So do you agree or disagree?

To disagree could mean a couple of things. One could believe that the justice system should be an instrument of vengeance working against those who have perpetrated crimes in order to avenge their victims. Or one might take it as meaning that the justice system should work as a deterrent towards crime against future victims; an instrument of prevention.

To agree with the statement would seem to indicate that one believes that there is a theoretical code or standard that should be upheld because its very existence has some positive influence on society at large.
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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:17 am

Honestly I'm again avoiding taxes.....

In my opinion Polanski should be punished, but not as badly as he probably will be.

AFA the line on 'justice', it's definitely another weekend chat. I do think the victim should always have a say though, and it's an incredibly obtuse thing to think that your particular moment in history is the pinnacle of ethics etc.

For what it's worth we already have a justice system that levies different punishments for the same crime; in fact state to state, county to county and judge to judge it can be vastly different.

Honestly I had no idea how fucked up Polanski's life has been?
Mother murdered by nazis.
Success in Hollywood.
Pregnant wife murdered by the Manson Family.
Then raping a 13 year old.
Damn? 8O

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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by ThrowAway » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:32 am

Machinesworking wrote: In my opinion Polanski should be punished, but not as badly as he probably will be.
He should receive the punishment any other child rapist should get. I would bet money hes going to get off lightly.

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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:09 am

ThrowAway wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: In my opinion Polanski should be punished, but not as badly as he probably will be.
He should receive the punishment any other child rapist should get. I would bet money hes going to get off lightly.
We'll see, my guess is 20 years. I think the american/world public wants a sacrifice, after R Kelly and Gary Glitter got off easy, and IMO were way worse offenders. :?

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Re: Polanski arrested in Switzerland on US warrant!!

Post by scott nathaniel » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:15 am

Machinesworking wrote: We'll see, my guess is 20 years. I think the american/world public wants a sacrifice, after R Kelly and Gary Glitter got off easy, and IMO were way worse offenders.
I bet it will be 20 years before he's actually extradited, if at all. Otherwise, how are ever going to see Rosemary's Baby's Baby

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