The rudeness of "RTFM"

[simon]

I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the most basic lessons about interacting with people that I learned when growing up, was:

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all



Now, I realize that here and there, people will ask what seems to be a silly question about something that is indeed covered in the manual, and it may make some of you roll your eyes.

I also know that in daily life, people often ask silly questions about all sorts of things, but how often do you respond to that person by saying:

"Go Fucking Look It Up!"

?

My guess is NEVER!

So why do some people think it's okay to whimsically tell people to go "READ THE FUCKING MANUAL" ???

that somehow this is less rude?

Sure, what they are asking may be easily answered in the manual, or twenty other places, but to basically tell that person to "Fuck OFF, eh?!" is not conducive to anybody.

If you really are trying to be helpful, why not say something like :

"The manual explains this well, but...."

or

"check out pg 61 in the manual"

sure its a few more characters, but at least you're not being a jerk.

Otherwise, just IGNORE the silly questions if you're only going to be rude.

Or we could devise a new acronym like: TMCT (the manual covers that)

or something like that.

Anyone here with me on this??

[plonkman]

correct.

now fuck off.. heh.

[Spiralgroove]

no i dont think its rude

if youre willing to invest the cost of ableton you should be willing to invest the time to learn how to use it, which entails reading the (fucking) manual

this forum is so clogged with such basic questions about things that the manual does cover, that it has become extremely frustrating to those of us who HAVE read the manual and want to learn something NEW about live, and music making in general.

Even the simple act of creating a seperate forum for newbies to live that contained the FAQ and the top 20 question that get asked ad infinitum in this forum would make a HUGE difference

but, alas we get to wade through "how do a warp a track" 600,000,000 times a week.

[plonkman]

how do you warp a track?

[Spiralgroove]

how do you warp a track?

one marker at a time, just like everybody else

[plonkman]

yeah that reminds me (sorry temporary threadjack, poor form etc etc)..

i know warp markers can be control clicked, so you can move more than one at a time etc.. is there a select all WMs? anyone..

please don`t say RTFM or TMCT or "fuck off" heh.

[Hypomixolydian]

Actually, I agree with Simon

[simon]

And I realize there probably is a need for a for a FAQ-Read Before Posting
and possibly even a registered users forum that's read-only to the non-registered.

but to confront ignorance with impatience and hostility is not very progressive, IMHO.

[plonkman]

I agree also.. there`s no need for rudeness IMO.

It`s more a common term now though no?

It can come across rude when there`s no real rudeness intended.

They can`t all be rude bastards? Can they?

[Parametex]

Simon and folks,

I think that politeness is strictly to be associated with intelligence. Smart person simply does not receive any ego boost in dissing some poors noob.

People who do, are weak in that sense.

Peace,

[mikemc]

i don't think i've seen nor dispensed a real live "rtfm" here, no pun intended. (not that i would, and i agree, it's neither worth saying nor reading).

[AdamJay]

it is pretty rude to say Read The Fucking Manual,
its very very rude to say that.
thats why we've abbreviated it as RTFM

no in all seriousness, i understand that some folks use the internet as an "ask a question" resource. hence the askjeeves.com craze of the late 90's, but this is 2005 and if you have enough knowledge to install Ableton, then you really should have enough knowledge to use google or any other search engine (like the ableton forum search!!). But i really try not to say RTFM because it is indeed harsh.

i've always looked at the internet like a giant library. so maybe its difficult for me to understand that some people look at it like a giant anonymous help desk. Perhaps its because there are two kinds of people in the world, those who figure things out for themselves, and those who depend on the people who figure things out themselves to help/teach them.

it would be different if Ableton didn't have such a well written manual, or if Ableton didn't have a forum with a search function, or even if Ableton didn't have such a great FAQ section. But the fact is, Ableton has all of these things, so really which is more rude? Asking for the 339th time "can live use mp3's" , or telling that idiot "RTFM!" ?

[jahnlay]

RTFM has been around in studios for years. THe reason for it is plain and simple. If somebody teaches you how to do something, you learn their bad habits, whereas, if you read the manual you'll learn how to use the package properly. It's not rude, it's just necessary!

[conny]

Well, I must agree with simon but I have come to understand the flamers more after being here for a while, to be honest.
But that's not the only point as the thread shows - the organisation of the forum seems to need a brush up.
Could be that a thread for regs could be OK but why do so many of us, me too I guess, post to "general" what should go into bugs and problems or tips and tricks?
Guess it's because here, in general, the attention is bigger. Or so it feels. A "Help please urgent my BMW midi out doesn't show up in Live" gathers dust in the problems appartement but will be flamed and then probably sorted out here.
I don't know how to foster posters to go into the right forum, though. But I think there should be some more areas like music posting, newbies, hardware (controllers etc).

Some poeple are bad manual readers, some are good. Some are lazy but some actually do not understand it unless being talled up front. We have to live with that.

To some limit of descency I think the culture of a forum shall be tough AND help people get in.

// C

[d2]

I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the most basic lessons about interacting with people that I learned when growing up, was:

Don't expect anyone to do something for you, that you can easily do for yourself

The social order is held together by what can be called a series of ad-hoc "kindnesses". A uncorrected breach in any of them leads -eventually - to chaos and violence.

Cheif among these kindness is the willingness to offer assistance to strangers in all sorts of various situations. We do this because we all know that none of us knows everything, and that we could - anyone of us - be caught in situations quite beyond our control where we desperately need someone's help.

So, if someone on a street corner asks "what time is it?", none of us should be especially rude in our response. A simple reply with the correct time is all that's required of anyone. "Get your own damned watch!" is quite outside of the norms of what is required to live in polite society.

But suppose that someone you barely know asks you the time, several times a day over a period of several weeks. And suppose that this person is plainly wearing a watch. And there are clocks on various walls all around you in every case. This person never bothers to set his watch when you give him the correct time, and never even glances at the clocks all around him.

Now, one day (upon being asked for the correct time) you draw his attention to the clocks around him and inquire about the watch on his wrist. His response is not to thank you, but chide you for your rudeness, when "all I asked was for the correct time, not a speech about clocks and wristwatches!".

You further learn that he wears the watch only for fashion purposes and "can't be bothered" with trivial details like setting his watch or learning to tell time from a clock. "That's for nerds who are into stuff like that" is one of the responses you get. You also notice that - in all of the cases where you gave hime the correct time - that he has never once offered a "thank you" ... only an "ok" or a nod or grunt.

Now I ask you: Who is the anti-social party in such a case? Clearly, the clueless watch-wearer is. He has everything necessary at his disposal to tell time for himself, but chooses to use others as his unpaid timekeepers. his behavior demonstrates actual contempt for his fellow human beings, who he treats as nothing more important than means to his own ends.

I used an extreme example to make a point, but the principle is sound.

People who have - or should reasonably be expected to have - all of the necessary resources at their disposal are to answer their own questions are actually being rude themselves when they expect others to work as their (unpaid and unthanked) brains for them. (That's precisely the attitude of slave-owner to slave - BTW - and I don't especially feel inclined to be kind toward anyone treating me or anyone else like a slave.)

Actual question from another forum: "I just got Reasons and I wanna make beats. All I wanna know is where is the Recard button and how do I make beats?" Where do you even go with a question like that? (and yes, he actually spelled it "Reasons" and "Recard" over several posts, and resisted every attempt to correct his spelling)

People who won't read their manuals, can't be bothered to do any thinking of their own, refuse to accept the notion that they should actually have to learn or do anything themselves and generally act as though the world owes them unlimited patience and support contribute nothing to anyone.

You see examples of this kind of thing all over various forums. Usually these people have a lot in common - the way they phrase questions, generall cluelessness, etc. - with those who use illegal cracked software.

"RTFM" is a perfectly sensible - and not at all rude - response to this kind of poster.

It may actually be a moral requirement.