My final words on DJs, composition and artistic merit

[dpkni1]

OK. I don't want to add to the noise floor here anymore - I've got to put in my $0.02 once and not repeat myself on this, since I can see it comes up again and again. I have to get this off my chest, but I won't repeat the points below ever again. Ever. That's a promise.

(though I might link to this thread...)

1. The dumbing down of Live 5 into an automatic beat detecting grid based DJ tool is tragic, but necessary for the survival of the corporate entity that is Ableton.

2. This dumbing down of Live as stated in point 1 will saturate the digital music performance labour market with every pinhead with an mp3 collection.

3. This saturation of the market will also erode Live's reputation as a tool for creative performers and composers. Promoters and punters will soon look on Live sets disdainfully as nothing requiring talent at all - and in many cases they will be right.

4. This dumbing down exacerbates the fact (yes, fact) that DJing is inheirently a no-talent activity when compared to live music creation. Why?

4.a. It is much easier to identify a good track, than it is to compose one on the fly.

4.b. Regarding the arguement that a DJs real talent is reading the crowd, an improvisational musician does the same on a higher order of magnitude...

4.c. Regarding the technical skill in mixing records, I learned in less than a two weeks. It's not hard, and Live 5 makes it even easier.

5. The arguement that "it's just about the music who cares how it's made" is infuriating. The lack of appreciation for effort and hard work is killing western civilization. The over-appreciation of DJs is just one of many symptoms of a sick society that values style over substance and worships immediate gratification without effort.

6. Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians. As well, DJs who compose their own music or are musicians in their own right are excluded from most portions of the above rant - When composing they are at least engineers and artists.

'nuff said. I say the above now just to put it on the record and not have to speak of it again. I also promise not to post on Mac/PC debates or Sasha threads ever again.

This is why DJs deserve less respect. I would rather see a good live band any day than listen to a guy who triggers pre-warped loops and has "good track selection".

I cannot believe the self-indulgent, mightier then thou drivel that is spilling forth in this thread. As a long time reader, not often poster of this forum, ive always found people's views, opinions, suggestions and statements to be intelligent and thought out. Until now. Who are you, montrealbreaks, to comment on whether somebody is a 'true' musician? Who are you to say that what you do (or might do) is better then what somebody else does? Who are you to suggest to people that they don't give as much respect to somebody spinning tunes on decks as somebody actually playing an instrument? All these statements lend themselves to suggesting you're an embittered, frustrated musician who does not like to see other's getting praise.....

Astar, good for you about seeing live bands over dj's. Wooptee f&*^ing doo....im sure there are multiple people who would rather see a dj, and even more who love going to see both (im one of them!). It's all well and good to say what you rather, but to suggest someone deserves less respect because they do something you view as what...less technical, not as hard, less brain cells needed????.....is ridiculous.

If you ask me, its attitudes like these that are the downfall of western civilization, not

The arguement that "it's just about the music who cares how it's made" is infuriating. The lack of appreciation for effort and hard work

[Tuur]

Montreal, you are absolutly wrong in everything except that everyone will be djing with an mp3 library (a lot of them are already doing that, even non musician are making "music" with live or FL from a while.... so what?, no news here....)

Exactly. And btw: Mixmeister made 'good' DJ-ing possible years ago. You can't get it easier than that.

I don't see the problem. If you ain't got no talent and/or nobody wants to listen to your $#!+, you'll never be heard from again.

Doesn't matter if you're in a band or playing mp3's. Simple as that.

[Beethoven]

What is this Ableton Live thing I hear of?

*looks at specs*

What?!?! You can overdub your takes? Use quantisize for it too? Edit notes visually with a mouse?

And you call yourself musicians?

[braj]

I totally am not into DJing or the related musical varieties that get DJ'd, I got no clue who Sasha is etc. but anyone who's making music gets my respect automatically and I think if it has a good beat and you can dance to it (and you make people happy) then you're cool by me. You don't have to be on my trip.

That said, I think the whole 'American Idol' trip that society is on in general is retarded and worthless. Even if you aren't in the 'mainstream' it still seems people have the same attitude. Cults of personality seem to drive everything these days, politics, music, movies. While culture suffers. Just my opinion, I need sleep and that really is bullshit what I just wrote anyway.

[supster]

I think the whole 'American Idol' trip that society is on in general is retarded and worthless. Even if you aren't in the 'mainstream' it still seems people have the same attitude. Cults of personality seem to drive everything these days, politics, music, movies.

totally, which underscores the point i made back there:

DJs were never superstars. the true essence of dance music is that group experience and the DJ just facilitates it.

over the years - human psychology being what it is - and corporate label marketing - changed that somewhat.

but a lot of the "famous" DJs now .. theyve been doing it for a long time and totally came from that background.

.. man .. they know exactly what it is they are doing and why, and lots of them count thier blessings they are able to make a living at it, and probably take most of thier personal pride in thier production work.

theyre just people. its you guys (the ones up in arms about the whole thing) and the sarcastic mentality you have about it that are helping perpetuate the whole stupid controversy.

hating on famous DJs is JUST as bad as idolizing them. its the opposite side of the same coin.

if you dont understand what i just said, than you're really missing the point of why people find you so annoying. and if you dont like the music ...than dont come to the party, and dont complain about who is delievering it and how.
.

[hambone1]

I'm with ya, Breaks.

But if you can't fight 'em, join 'em. As a long-time drummer in various guises, I'm now doing the corporate function entertainment thing. People pay THOUSANDS just to see an audio/video/lighting extravaganza for a few hours at a wedding reception or corporate event. Live makes this SOOO easy. I'm even starting to play percussion live just for something to do during the gig.

So I shouldn't moan about Live. It's let me quit my graphic design day job, just do a few gigs a week, and spend the rest of the time doing real music and pounding through the forest on my bike!

[dpkni1]

if you dont like the music, dont come to the party

AMEN

[Lowride]

Here's my take on this discussion...

The way I see it, it all comes down to quality...

Just because Ableton removes some of the monotonous tasks required to dj, doesn't make the art of digital djing less valid. If that was the case, why are so many top flight djs deciding it's time they got into the digital djing scene???
I'm sure if it did make their "art" less valid, they wouldn't be seen dead doing it, as it would hurt their credibility, and resultantly their bank accounts.

However, as I stated, more and more top flight djs are turning to digital djing, and a lot of these guys are doing it probably as they do have some kind of production/compositional skills which they can better employ using this kind of medium.

For a start, the fact that you can have set up in ableton the equivalent of say, a dozen turntables or cdjs gives you more scope for flexibility from a djing perspective. (Incidently, the more decks you employ, theoretically the more you become a live arranger...) Carl Cox was looked at as being quite revolutionary when he started using 3 decks when playing out. At the end of the day though, it wasn't the fact that he used three decks that gave him credibilty, it was the fact that he used three decks, but what he played was quality - the 3 decks thing though having artistic merit, for all intents and purposes is essentially a gimmick - a bit like Jimi Hendrix playing guitar with his teeth...

Just because Ableton makes the laborious tasks of djing less boring and tedious, doesn't necessarily mean that it will turn everyone into dj superstars.

Someone once said, " Just because everyone has access to a pen and paper doesn't make everyone Shakespeare..."

Likewise the same applies with Ableton and digital DJing.

As I said earlier, it all comes down to quality.

Lowride

[Martyn]

the 3 decks thing though having artistic merit, for all intents and purposes is essentially a gimmick

A good friend of mine used to play some of the famous underpass raves in London donkeys years ago, he knows Carl Cox really well. The third deck in both Cox's and my friend's case is usually occupied by a piece of 'locked groove' vinyl, this makes for quite a bit of difference in the power stakes when all three are chugging away happily. Definately more a tool than gimmick.

[Nav]

I don't often post here Ive been a live user for ages now and tend to read more than I post, but I feel like I want to say somethign this time.

I mean, if live does what you want then excellent, if it adds features more than your expectations great! just because they dont serv a purpose for your musical intentions shoudlnt make them a negative addition.

Alot of promoters I know are excited that I can do a set with just a laptop and a keyboard I can mix a dj set with a live pa and people love it!

Samplers got a bad rep at first I mean the idea of copying bits of other peoples audio and then rearrange them is surly jeoperdising the talent of 'real' musicians if we use the same thought process here.

MP3 is just another audio format thats all now supported, auto warp is just automating a process we find usefull and is a labour saving implimentation.

I really have found you insitefull on this forum montreal and often inspiring. It's a shame you feel like this, I hope you dont plan to boycott live.

[wildcon]

I don’t usually take the bait and chip in on these quasi rant posts, but on this one I feel obliged to put in my penny’s worth –

I not a DJ. I am a first and fore mostly a musician. My background is in classical (playing the Violin) music. I have since taken up the guitar and can play pretty well in most styles.

I absolutely love live music. There is nothing better than playing live or seeing someone actually playing their stuff.

However I have several friends who are successful DJ’s and I equally enjoy bopping around to their stuff.

I do object to DJ’s getting paid colossal sums, as I don’t feel the input and skill deserves the reward. I don’t get hung up about this though. This can be applied to any walk of life. Just look at modern art for heavens sake. How much does Damian Hurst get paid for slicing up a cow and putting it in a
case !!

I’ve started messing around with Live for DJ’ing (rather than composing and recording) just for a bit of fun and I’m loving it.
Rather than slate the ease of the program with beat matching etc. how about praising it for making this accessible. I don’t need two decks a mixer and a case full of records. Just the laptop.

Of course it can be classed as dumbing down. I’m sure you can set the whole thing up in follow mode and set it off – Instant DJ set !
If that’s what you want then fine. That’s up to you.

However, I look at it as a chance of being totally creative. I can mangle the loops, change the beats, pitch shift, create my own breakdowns / transits between songs. Play keyboards and guitar live over the top etc etc etc. There really is no limit – only your own creativity and imagination.

And the great thing is, if you’ve got the guts and musical – yes musical – knowhow , you can do this on the fly improvising as you go.

I’m sure people will be able to appreciate the difference between someone pressing a few keys on a computer to someone actually trying to ‘create’ something.

I personally feel that there will be more of a melding of live music with new technology. You really can’t replace the ‘feel’ of live spontaneous music and it is noticeable that some of the bigger ‘Dance’ artists and bands are bringing in guitarists and bass players rather than sequencing them.

You can embrace technology or rebel against it, but don’t slate someone who doesn’t share you’re view.

[Nav]

I don’t usually take the bait and chip in on these quasi rant posts, but on this one I feel obliged to put in my penny’s worth –

I not a DJ. I am a first and fore mostly a musician. My background is in classical (playing the Violin) music. I have since taken up the guitar and can play pretty well in most styles.

I absolutely love live music. There is nothing better than playing live or seeing someone actually playing their stuff.

However I have several friends who are successful DJ’s and I equally enjoy bopping around to their stuff.

I do object to DJ’s getting paid colossal sums, as I don’t feel the input and skill deserves the reward. I don’t get hung up about this though. This can be applied to any walk of life. Just look at modern art for heavens sake. How much does Damian Hurst get paid for slicing up a cow and putting it in a
case !!

I’ve started messing around with Live for DJ’ing (rather than composing and recording) just for a bit of fun and I’m loving it.
Rather than slate the ease of the program with beat matching etc. how about praising it for making this accessible. I don’t need two decks a mixer and a case full of records. Just the laptop.

Of course it can be classed as dumbing down. I’m sure you can set the whole thing up in follow mode and set it off – Instant DJ set !
If that’s what you want then fine. That’s up to you.

However, I look at it as a chance of being totally creative. I can mangle the loops, change the beats, pitch shift, create my own breakdowns / transits between songs. Play keyboards and guitar live over the top etc etc etc. There really is no limit – only your own creativity and imagination.

And the great thing is, if you’ve got the guts and musical – yes musical – knowhow , you can do this on the fly improvising as you go.

I’m sure people will be able to appreciate the difference between someone pressing a few keys on a computer to someone actually trying to ‘create’ something.

I personally feel that there will be more of a melding of live music with new technology. You really can’t replace the ‘feel’ of live spontaneous music and it is noticeable that some of the bigger ‘Dance’ artists and bands are bringing in guitarists and bass players rather than sequencing them.

You can embrace technology or rebel against it, but don’t slate someone who doesn’t share you’re view.

Amen!

[drumroll57]

I really did NOT want to reply to this, be dragged into even expaining or rationalizing what Mtbks is doing here.

So I will limit my comments to saying that the following observations hold true for most human beings in many situations.

If you are a true creative individual, someone who through patience, humility and the long years of apprenticeship has not just learned but mastered a craft, earned the admiration of his peers and is feeling wonderfully at ease with himself....

That person will never feel the need to base their perception of others on what they do not like about them. They are far too busy being creative and radiating positive energy to others around them, as well as sharing the same given by others.

That person will not recourse to cheap stereotypes to portray in a bad light things or people that (for reasons unknown to the rest of the world) they despise. They are far too busy seeing the sublime and the inspiration in each and everyone of us, great and small.

That same person ultimately and very sadly would only be advertising their own insecurities by attacking rather than contributing.

Sad to say, but Mtrlbks has issues. I do not need to know why, but from reading this board time and time again, the pattern of his writings is making it increasingly clear that he has deep issues with certain people not possessing what he considers talent, or the type of talent he values and respects above all others.

My purpose here is not to lower myself to an all-too-easy rebuttal. Rather it is only here to conterbalance this influx of negative energy and jealous, bitter vibes which some younger and more impressionable members of this board might construe as truthful.

So I would suggest that Mtrlbks really dig to the very innermost center of his feelings, and sort out for himself what makes him hate anyone this much, spew that much bile and literary venom. What makes it necessary to express all of this contempt for what ultimately he displays a very poor and limited understanding for. (in my opinion)

It is ugly, despicable and makes a bad name for all of those who have made careers doing this stuff before many here were possibly even born, and many of whom have invented or created something which when put in a historical perspective, has been some of the most significant cultural contributions to the betterment of mankind through integration, joys of dancing, and breakdowns of racial, economical and social stereotypes that have been perpetuated beforehand and afterwards in other forms of popular music.

Dance music would not be anything with the DJ's taken out of the equation.

Having played in, as well as been around bands myself for a great many years, I have become all too familiar with the 'frustrated-muso-rant' I kept hearing over and over from people who never accepted their own shortcomings and rather than work at understanding and adapting to the ever-changing realities of things out there, kept blaming their own utter lack of creativity and dim success on others, so as to ultimately deflect the terrible blow of having to come to terms with the fact that in all likelihood they would always play the C-grade circuit, and that for all the incredible talent at running scales on the neck of their strats, their never had mastered the magic of making, discovering or exposing hit records as those supposedly 'talentless DJ's' did.

Just because you claim to have learned the mechanics of it doesn't mean much, except that obviously, that is all that your limited perception of things allows you to comprehend of it.

Very sadly, I feel you indeed have issues that need to be worked on. (don't we all?... why choose to make yours public)

By writing what you did, you ultimately have shown yourself to be -for lack of a better word- yet another form of bigoted, jealous, bitter person who would rather spend their time brooding on this than making contributions that we could all enjoy.

...or maybe this hate is what you want to be remembered for?

D.

[dpkni1]

Wow, it only takes a few intelligent, well-written, inciteful and thoughtful responses like these by drumroll, supster, wildcom, nav and others to make me realise why i love reading this forum so much!

Thanks guys

[hambone1]

Drumroll

Your eloquence, insight, and intelligence are truly inspirational.. and make you incapable of being a DJ!