Ableton Forum

Thank you dented42ford for the enthusiastic explanation

I tried your suggestions and I'm getting closer to the sound I want.

I wish ableton displayed all the analogue settings at once. Is there any plugins that do this?

Since you have Suite, you may consider using the new 9.5 synths, particularly Bass and Poli, as your primary synths, as they sound exceptional. Analog is capable, but I think those 2 new ones sound especially wonderful.

I would avoid using effects when new and still learning about synthesis. Focus on achieving the sounds you desire by first using the very diverse and rich world of options in synthesis. After you feel you have a sense for the basics, you can complement them with effects.

In the future, you may find this series worth reading: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

dented42ford wrote:

mholloway wrote:I'm shocked, shocked to learn that somebody who is brand new to music production and synthesis "can't get the synth sound [they] want."

Way to be totally useless! You have no sense of entitled arrogance at all. I am absolutely astounded at your level of humility, seriously, how do you manage?

Actually I was just making a joke. But good thing we have Internet Social Justice Warriors like you around to put people like me in their place with your cutting grasp of sarcasm. Your upgraded badge is in the mail.

P.S. you might want to reflect on the mixed message of calling out 'entitled arrogance' and then ending with an eye-roll emoticon

-M

I think the main thing with Analog is that it doesn't have an interface that looks like the synths it's inspired from. So in that regard it might be a bit more difficult to use as a starting point to learn & understand subtractive synthesis. I personally think that Analog sounds fine.

Try to get the basics down. After that, you can use any subtractive-type synth with greater ease.
I also agree that you should not use effects for now (except for a little reverb after a while)

I don't have a link but if you could find a simple tutorial / term dictionary for subtractive synthesis, it could definitely jump-start your journey!

I actually am a vote 'for' fx. But try to use them tastefully. Don't let anything stop you from experimenting.

Still, I don't know if you're necessarily looking for tips on beginning synthesis in general. Sounds like you're already doing fine. Just keep at it, don't be afraid to do research or ask questions if you're seeking a specific kind of sound.

The more you tinker with everything, the better you'll get at finding solutions. I know that sometimes I would challenge myself to come up with various 'types' of sounds and build a track with them. Sometimes you'll use the classic methods of making a bassdrum, other times you'll feel like getting a little more original haha. Either way, Live makes it very easy to be creative!

(As long as you've got a comfortable seat, and a nice mouse!)

mholloway wrote:

dented42ford wrote:

mholloway wrote:I'm shocked, shocked to learn that somebody who is brand new to music production and synthesis "can't get the synth sound [they] want."

Way to be totally useless! You have no sense of entitled arrogance at all. I am absolutely astounded at your level of humility, seriously, how do you manage?

Actually I was just making a joke. But good thing we have Internet Social Justice Warriors like you around to put people like me in their place with your cutting grasp of sarcasm. Your upgraded badge is in the mail.

No, you were not "making a joke." You were being a disgusting, condescending troll who contributed nothing to the conversation. I simply responded in kind - in this case, sarcastically - and then moved on to try and help the OP. You just stuck your proverbial head in and implied the OP is "a noob", and therefore "isn't worth helping". My grasp of sarcasm is just fine, thank you very much, but so is my grasp of common decency...

(PS, not a "Social Justice Warrior" by any means, just not a fan of bullies.)

ccg123 wrote:Thank you dented42ford for the enthusiastic explanation

I tried your suggestions and I'm getting closer to the sound I want.

I wish ableton displayed all the analogue settings at once. Is there any plugins that do this?

Glad to be helpful.

AFAIK there are only a few "VA" (Virtual Analog) synths that actually do show all parameters on one page, mostly because there can be A LOT to keep track of. That being said, most of the "Moog-based" ones keep to a one-or-few page layout, usually based on a MiniMoog. NI's Monark comes to mind, though it isn't technically one page, nor is it technically a plugin - it runs inside Reaktor.

Honestly, you lose a lot of flexibility by trying to keep everything that simple. The "best" (by which I mean most cited as excellent) soft synths tend to be ones that have a lot of complexity, but keep it under control by means of excellent/intuitive layout. U-he's synths come to mind, as well as Sylenth. Fair warning, synth shopping can be an expensive hobby!

ccg123 wrote:Happy new year,

I am very new to the whole music production thing and finding it difficult to get the synth sound I want...

I'm using Ableton Live 9 Suite and the Analogue instrument. I've been playing around with the Filter Envelope on a single oscillator mostly.

But no matter what settings and devices I use, all my synths sound very 'buzzy'. How do I get a cleaner sound with more colour?

I don't know whether to tweak the Analogue settings or use audio effects to get the sound I want.

Any recommendations/suggestions would be very much appreciated.

When creating sounds, try to think 'Organic' and think about how 'Organic' sounds are shaped. Basically, this means breaking the sound down to 4 main components I would call BOOM, BODY, BUZZ, EDGE.

For a good full synth sound create a Layered instrument rack consisting of 4 chains for BOOM, BODY, BUZZ, EDGE. Analog in each chain.

Now before you continue, do you want a MONOPHONIC sound (Bassline, Melody) a POLYPHONIC (Chords) sound or a PERCUSSIVE/SFX (non-musical pitch)? You would need to adjust your legato/portamento/unison assignment first based on your BASSLINE, MELODY, CHORD or Percussive needs.

Now imagine what 'character' you want your Synth to Have. I like to think in terms of orchestral instrument qualities

Woodwinds: Breathy tone, rich in TRIANGLE waveforms (What inspiration should I use to craft my sound?)
Brass: Growly tone, rich in SQUARE waveforms
Strings: Strong harmonic tone, rich in SAWTOOTH waveforms
Percussion: Low End one shot content, rich in NOISE and SINE waveforms
Chiors: Vocal tones, rich in PWM+NOISE+BAND PASS FILTER modulation
Drones: Hypnotic tone, rich in PWM content
Piano: Chordal/Melodic Tones, Rich in DECAY modulation



Now imagine, how is this sound supposed to be played in relation to other instruments? (What is the envelope character of the sound)
Keys: Instant attack, medium slow decay and release
Lead: Instant attack, no decay,
Pad: Slow attack, slow release
Percussive: Instant attack, medum to slow decay, no release


Now imagine, which instrument category does your sound belong to? (How do I save this preset for easy recall later)
Usually these are LEAD, BASS, PAD, SFX, PERCUSSION

Now image, what style of MUSIC does this sound belong to? (Where is it practical to play this sound)
Hip-Hop, Dub Step, Trance, DnB, Rock, etc

Chain 1: Boom
This chain is heavy on the bottom end, shelve anytyhing past 125hz by -12 to -20dB, and boost any frequency areas between 1k-4k if you want to pronoince the attack portion of the BOOM part of the sound. Usually you would make this chain -12 or -24 semitones on note input.

Chain 2: Body
This chain is heavy on the 250-800hz range, this gives your full synth sound more depth. Apply a HPF at about 200hz and a LPF at about 4 to 6k. Usually this is your Fundamental note so you woulndt transpose it relative to other chain layers.

Chain 3: BUZZ
This chain is heav on harmonic content, this gives your synth it's 'vocal character'. This will require more EG and LFO modulation than the BOOM and BODY sections on the Filter or Harmonic content section of your sound synch as OSC SYNC freq, PWM, FILTER Cutoff, etc. Also a seperate LFO control o the AMP for tremolo and anoher LFO component on pitch for VIbrato so you can make a Tremolo and VIbrato macr cotrol on CC1 and CC11. HPF at about 500hz and LPF at about 6-8k. This part is usually -12, -7, -5, 0, +5, +7, or +12 semitones (experiment with those perfect intervals for BUZZ chain)

Chain 3: EDGE
This chain section is heavy on the AIR as well as edgy harmonic content, this gives your synth a more 'organic quality'. Usually you would build a synth that contains a a rain wind like character. This part is usually +12 or +24 Semitones . Aply HPF at 4k to 8k to taste

Then you can proceed to effects rack to process all four chains. Doing this This will give you a full ranged synth sound you are looking for.

Synth Animation Tips:
Try Arpeggiation on the BUZZ chain only with +5,+7 or +12 semitone arpeggiaton.

Bass Saturation Tips:
Try putting AMP>CAB combo on only the bass chain, this will give bass additional harmonic character.

Macro Tips:
Try assigning groups of Vibrato (bidirectional Pitch), Tremolo (negative Amp Level), Wah (Filter Cut Off) to dedicated macro knobs. You can automate this in clips or in timeline to give more lively performance.

Performance Tips:
Assign 'Amp Attack Time" to 'Velocy'. The softer you hit the keys, the slower the patch will fade in, the harder you hit the keys the faster the sound will play.

Assign 'AMP' to velocity so it gets louder when you play harder.

Assign 'Filter Cutoff" with posative polarity to Aftertouch so you can hold the chord or key down with pressure based vowel movement.

Assign mix and match +/- 5, 7 or 12 semitones to BOOM, BODY, EDGE layers to attain different harmonic combinations when pitch wheel is down and up relative to the BUZZ layer.

Assign Mod Wheel to Vibrato, end chain LPF Wah, and/or Tremolo for easy CC1 modulation emphasis

Teenage Engineering OP-2 wrote:Since you have Suite, you may consider using the new 9.5 synths, particularly Bass and Poli, as your primary synths, as they sound exceptional. Analog is capable, but I think those 2 new ones sound especially wonderful.

Yes, this is good advice. I should have mentioned that my views on the Live synths don't in fact extend to the new ones that came with Live 9.5 as I haven't tried them.
Also, the new filters as have been mentioned may offset the experience for some people at least somewhat. I feel these are very nice and useful in Sampler/Simpler, but they don't change my basic view on the synths Analog or Operator, nor Collision and Tension (I'm not sure if any of these new filters affect Tension, but don't think so). If you combine these in layers you can certainly get usable sounds, but not good enough or fast enough in my opinion.

I just want to add I think dented42ford, miekwave and several others has given excellent and useful advice above.

The Ableton synths are actually very capable and powerful. The only thing that people might find a bit intimidating is the layout at first but once you get to know it they are a breeze to use.

Analog in particular can sound really fat (try increasing the oscillators volume and adding shape distortion sym 2 or 3 on the filters and you will see) and warm and rival top of the range 3rd party vst synths once you know how to use it.

The problem I find is that most people tend to look elsewhere for quality thinking that the Ableton stock plugins are not good enough when that is not the case at all.

Getting to know your tools inside out is the key to great sounds, not the latest gizmo synth with loads of impressive presets.

Hektagon1 wrote:
The problem I find is that most people tend to look elsewhere for quality thinking that the Ableton stock plugins are not good enough when that is not the case at all.

Getting to know your tools inside out is the key to great sounds, not the latest gizmo synth with loads of impressive presets.

People have a different opinion what is good sound. That's a fact. It's all subjective. I really feel the Live synths suck and I've spent several years with them. When I did an honest comparison they didn't hold up. At all.
I still acknowledge others may find they do sound adequate or really good. That's not a problem. Again, it's all subjective and dependent on what you're trying to create.

One aspect of getting somewhere as a producer is to acknowledge there are tools you like and there are tools you don't like. Sometimes you will change your mind. There are many possible paths to walk. Make sure you find and walk yours and not someone else's.

There's no need to worry about this, as it's something you can do. This would include listening to everyone occasionally, but to your ears and your experiences specifically, and making up your own mind. No matter what you're creating you're the producer of it. You get to decide.

Start here: http://www.syntorial.com/ best way to learn synthesis.

About Live synths: they are good enough, they won't hol back anyone, but yes there are better synths depending on the kind of sounds you want to make.

Hektagon1 wrote:The Ableton synths are actually very capable and powerful. The only thing that people might find a bit intimidating is the layout at first but once you get to know it they are a breeze to use.

Analog in particular can sound really fat (try increasing the oscillators volume and adding shape distortion sym 2 or 3 on the filters and you will see) and warm and rival top of the range 3rd party vst synths once you know how to use it.

The problem I find is that most people tend to look elsewhere for quality thinking that the Ableton stock plugins are not good enough when that is not the case at all.

Getting to know your tools inside out is the key to great sounds, not the latest gizmo synth with loads of impressive presets.

I'd agree with pretty much everyone here. This is totally subjective...as long as you're happy with the sound then it's all cool!

I got a bunch of soft synths (SynthMaster, Native Instruments stuff, Zebra, Element) but Analog and Operator are still my go-to synths. I know them pretty well, and I can get the sound I want fairly easily - but there is also plenty of scope for exploration and experimentation!

I think the key is understanding more about synthesis and harmonics. There's some great advice about waveforms here - saws are buzzy, squares can be bassy, detuning and unison mode can add thickness.

Don't forget a touch of white noise to thicken the sound!

I think it's really easy to forget that adding movement to a sound can create a really nice tone/timbre - warm or otherwise. Experiment with filter and amplitude envelopes. Warm bass sounds you probably won't want your filter to be completely open. You might want the filter to open and close, you might want an LFO to influence the pulse width of a square to create character or the frequency to create tremolo.

I think Analog (and Operator - which is an FM synth, but does have a selectable analog signal path) are really fantastic learning tools...and can genuinely sound great.

Like a lot of guys have said, spend some time learning about synthesis - experiment, have fun.

Understanding how to use the tools will let you know if they are actually the right tools for the job. Here's some really good articles on synthesis, even if you skip all the math bits you'll learn a ton. And it's fun too.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Start at the bottom, work your way up.