New Live GUI

[Orvekio]

"It's all about function, not fashion." - yeah, but what if you could have both

I would still choose "classic mode"!!!

Hehe, there you go, my friend To each their own and everyone is happy

[Angstrom]

A lot of people are mistaking "a new GUI" for "add pointless bells and whistles". These are two different things.Updating an interface is usually to improve usability rather than to dazzle or baffle users.

Live's interface appears simple, but it is a facade - because it actually obscures the newer functionality. Back when Live had relatively few functions the interface perfectly reflected that function (what you saw was what you got), but now Live has many new functions and the functional triggers must find space where they can - in hidden menus, or in options.txt files, all in hidden and mysterious folders such as \User Remote Scripts. The interface does not really reflect what is there, the new functions are crammed in wherever space was previously left. Often the new functions are hidden where users will never find them.

Live's UX needs an upgrade simply to address the additional functionality that has been added. This does not mean dropshadows and lens-flares for coolness - it means a better integration of the new features by being prepared to say "if we were to start from scratch - how would we implement text notes". The aim of doing such a thing is to increase simplicity and ease of use.

> Example: make the interface more modular, so users can select what elements they want to see in each context (performance/Studio/DJ/etc). Outcome : The user sees a context relevant interface at all times.

> Example: make the relationship between Session and Arrange more explicit, many users are actually confused by this. Strengthen the relationship and define it better. Outcome : the application is more self-explanatory

> Example: improve visual definition between different types of objects such as Racks, Presets, Devices, VSTi, VST. Outcome: increased understanding of the library and browser, increased usage speed.

This is what happens when people update a GUI - they set User Experience (UX) targets and aim to hit them. You may find that an updated Live GUI looks very similar to teh current one, but in fact offers you much better affordances.


tldr; GUI design is about making things easier for users, and although some users are habituated to established UX this does not mean the current UX is optimal.

[yannxou]

If Live provides a proper and full API (not Max4Live) then other people could really start writing innovative GUIs....

[Orvekio]

@ Angstrom: Excellent. Thank you

[Orvekio]

If Live provides a proper and full API (not Max4Live) then other people could really start writing innovative GUIs....

This would be sweet!

[ollyb303]

Angstrom, I think you've actually hit the nail on the head there fella!

[Machinesworking]

@Angstom, a lot of what you're talking about is interface elements, the same sort of thing as my dislike of Live Racks using knobs only for functions that are on/off states.

Same with the windowing, IMO DP has absolutely the best windowing interface bar none, every window is collapsable into a single interface like Live's with the choice of where to put the window, with notes you get the choice of the size and style of text, so for one song you can have HUGE letters to remind you to do some task specific to that song etc. IMO Live's interface idea has become sort of tyrannical in the sense that everything looks the same, the instruments and FX are all using the same elements, so at a quick glance you have no idea what you're looking at in the sub window. This was a conscious decision on their part to get rid of the candy coated look of DAWs. Cubase IMO is a great example, a lot of the ugliness is a cost of separating elements for intuitive reaching for on the screen, but then they tried to dress up that ugliness, and made it look like crap. Sonar definitely suffers from "convenient button syndrome"

In fact after googling a bit Sonar, Logic, DP and Pro Tools all look very similar to each other, the 2D look of Live is IMO one reason why it's quicker to grasp information on smaller laptop screens, but the burried feature issues, the intuitive mousing at the expense of global keyboard shortcuts (IE mousing is the only way to expand and resize window elements), and the lack of any way to differentiate embedded plug ins and FX in the sub window is a UX no no IMO.
The main thing I think though is Live is developed with laptop users in mind, none of the other DAWs are fully useable on an laptop with as much open as Live is, this is something to credit the GUI with for sure.

[Machinesworking]

I saw this program called Rax http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/rax/ and its structure looks like ableton's clip view. However, I like the graphical quality. Is there anyway that Ableton can eventually replicate this?

I think it's OK looking for sure, but think about it, that mixer takes up the entire screen in this screenshot, think about what it would look like if shrunk to half the screen.
Pretty unreadable IMO. Plus think about have 16 tracks, that's only 5 tracks. A lot of scrolling would be involved in a GUI like that.

[esky]

Oh my good, this gui is so damn ugly...uuaahh. This discussion is totally useless. Hopefully they will not spend a second of a programmers time to think about styling an alternative gui this way. Its good as it is. Full stop. Period. Small enhancements are allowed though...

[Angstrom]

I know I'm 3 pages late here but I don't like that Rax thing.
It's fashionable looking in an anti-functional way. What function does all that fake 'Gloss' serve? It merely baffles the eye. It's confusing rather than helpful.

Of course 3d can be used functionally, for example you might want to use a small 'groove' to show separation of elements, or you might use an indented section to show a sub-set of controls, but here it doesn't illustrate anything at all other than "I'm HIP to the Photoshop tutorials of 2007!" .

A classic example of letting fashionable looks interfere with usability. Bad bad bad designer.

[Orvekio]

Sigh. Apparently those of use who do find any kind of artistic development favorable are not welcome expressing feature requests on this open forum thread called "New Live GUI". That's all folks, the verdict is in, the supreme jury has spoken: No artistic changes to Live. Ever. After all it does seem reasonable that a few people should see to it that no changes ever come to the GUI because said changes would be absolutely "ugly", "baffling", "useless" and any other negative subjective adjective one could think of. Any kind of modern graphic design principles taken into account (apparently even if this was an optional feature) would be rejected by every single user besides those few who suggest the idea. It would also deter new users a generation behind us to purchase Live.

self-right·eous
? ?/?s?lf?ra?t??s, ?s?lf-/ Show Spelled[self-rahy-chuhs, self-] Show IPA
–adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
------
kainotophobia
kainophobia, kainotophobia, cainophobia, cainotophobia An excessive fear of anything new or of change.
------
em·pa·thy
? ?/??mp??i/ Show Spelled[em-puh-thee] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

Lol, okay, I'm just picking. I'll stop. Honestly, I don't care if anything happens to the Live GUI. I just thought it might be nice. But I will bow out quietly now since I am outnumbered and obviously wrong.

[Machinesworking]

Sigh. Apparently those of use who do find any kind of artistic development favorable are not welcome expressing feature requests on this open forum thread called "New Live GUI". That's all folks, the verdict is in, the supreme jury has spoken: No artistic changes to Live. Ever. After all it does seem reasonable that a few people should see to it that no changes ever come to the GUI because said changes would be absolutely "ugly", "baffling", "useless" and any other negative subjective adjective one could think of. Any kind of modern graphic design principles taken into account (apparently even if this was an optional feature) would be rejected by every single user besides those few who suggest the idea. It would also deter new users a generation behind us to purchase Live.

self-right·eous
? ?/?s?lf?ra?t??s, ?s?lf-/ Show Spelled[self-rahy-chuhs, self-] Show IPA
–adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
------
kainotophobia
kainophobia, kainotophobia, cainophobia, cainotophobia An excessive fear of anything new or of change.
------
em·pa·thy
? ?/??mp??i/ Show Spelled[em-puh-thee] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

Lol, okay, I'm just picking. I'll stop. Honestly, I don't care if anything happens to the Live GUI. I just thought it might be nice. But I will bow out quietly now since I am outnumbered and obviously wrong.

Jesus? are you really that dense?
I rarely call out people on this sort of thing, but christ? you're another in a long list of people online who hate it when their viewpoint isn't shared by others and start with ad homonym BS. This is an open forum and people have every right to disagree with you. When you take that disagreement as a personal attack and start attacking people, you make yourself look like an ass.

You claiming in no uncertain terms that people who disagree with you are self righteous has got to be the ultimate pinocle of irony. Wow?

[Orvekio]

Bro, chill okay. I didn't mean to upset you. If I offended you (or anyone else for that matter), I'm sorry. It was a little bit of a joke (the definition quotes) and I even said I was picking so I wouldn't be taken literally. You kind of make yourself look like an ass getting bent out of shape over sarcasm. I was correct to say that people are referring to other programs GUI designs as "ugly" or "baffling". I feel like you are blowing things out of proportion because I am doing exactly what you said regarding having the right to disagree on an open forum. Actually, if you read my posts I am not disagreeing with people, I am being an advocate for choice - something you contradict yourself on by "calling me out" with linguistic fallacies. And speaking of what I was trying to make light of, Self-righteousness is being portrayed here by many (and it isn't a bad thing, but a common thing for all, I'm guilty of it too) who wish to not see any other design ideas, which correlates with the definition of the term. Hence why I quoted it. Again, sarcastic joke. Again, sorry I upset you. Again, sorry I'm dense.

To get the thread back on track, I would like to know if you think a redesign would benefit at all from a face lift, even in terms of marketing? Or if you think, like Angstrom said, a GUI redesign should exclude any cosmetics and concentrate more on user experience? Or both?

[nonchai]

NO NO NO!!

please please Ableton - think VERY carefully before changing the minimalist GUI.

The fact that everything looks simple and the minimal use of graphical bitmaps helps to a feeling of solidity.

And every pretty picture/graphic just adds to the visual distraction.

I’d rather have Ableton developers focus utmost on reliability and improvements that genuinely improve the use of LIVE in live situations!.

Oh and regarding RAX - i used to own EAX2 and its a fine product, but no - I would hate it if Ableton looked like RAX. Even though the RAX 3 does indeed look smart and modern.

The current Look of LIVE gives fast instantaneus visual feedback that is essention in live performances and in badly/erratically lit situations.

If there is to be any major rethink of the LIVE GUI - can i strongly ask that Ableton employ some GUI consultants and psychology researchers to actiually find out empirically what kind of GUI really suits a DJ or live performer working on stage under high stress situations - with their eyes typically darting between various bits of hardware and the laptop screen....

[Machinesworking]

Self-righteousness is being portrayed here by many (and it isn't a bad thing, but a common thing for all, I'm guilty of it too) who wish to not see any other design ideas, which correlates with the definition of the term.

Ok you are dense. You also don't know the definition even though you posted it. Anybody can disagree with anybody on anything, that, in itself is not a self righteous act.
Here's the definition again from your own post.

confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

Nobody made any behavioral claims on their opinion until YOU posted this, period. Simply put, no one questioned the behavior of people who want a new GUI in an attempt to paint themselves as on a higher moral ground, that was all you. You are the one that brought self righteousness into the discussion, because YOU can't handle it when people disagree with you obviously.
The pathetic part is you thinking you're "picking" on people for their shortcomings.