b0unce wrote:
where the indigenous are slaughtered and displaced, both culturaly and physicaly. Not to mention introducing them to poisons such as liquor and social welfare.
To a larger or greater degree, that has happened virtually everywhere in the world at some point. As regards to liquor, well that is essentially an individual choice. If is a person is too weak (or whatever the appropriate adjective is) to control themselves, then there is something inherent in their personality that gives them that tendancy. Blaming colonialists is in my opinion invalid.
b0unce wrote:
and yes, now that he is westernised his comments should be quoted as such - westernised. if I had to choose 'is this a muslim comment, or a westernised comment' I'd go with westernised, EASILY ..... its disingenuous to do otherwise. definatly so - now that you've admited yourself that your source is westernised.
Perhaps that is true, but nevertheless this person is in a "better" position to be critical and make a comment. The guy has lived in two cultures and by comparing them he has arrived at certain conclusions. So his criticism is more valid or authentic.
b0unce wrote:
oh and as for what I mean about 'american' ideals, well what I am suggesting by this is things like....'the bottom line' , privatised education, health, prisons , politicians with fiscal interests, the allmighty corporation, cultural insensitivy & ignorance, instituitional racism, the loss of civil liberties CONTRARY to the wishy-washy rhetoric, etc etc etc.....and economicaly bullying the rest of the world into doing the same thing.
Well, what is the alternative? Admitedly, western values are far from perfect, but what do you suggest. Yes, of course some Utopian paradise where everything is absolutely perfect, but what are the chances?
noisetonepause wrote:Keyser Soze wrote:In fact the concept of free will doesn't exist as it does in other religions.
Good old fashioned wrong! Some muslims are very fatalist, granted, but this is one of the very classical debates of muslim theologians.
On a sidenote, blind faith (at the very centre of Christianity, IME) is thought of as a sin by many muslims. Faith is seen as having three, equally important parts: to know with the mind, to know with the heart, and to profess with the tongue.
I will admit to not being knowledgeable enough about the muslim faith, but with the conversations I have had with muslims, that is the impression I get. Whether they are true representatives or whether it is being misquoted/misunderstood I am in no position to say. Yet, the hardliners, give that impression of a very intolerant, unequal and repressive faith.
noisetonepause wrote:Keyser Soze wrote: mind, to know with the heart, and to profess with the tongue.
It is stated in a BBC report that 80% of Germans associate Islam with terrorism and oppression of women.
Says loads about those 80% but very little about Islam. IMHO!
Maybe. However, the public image that (fanatical/hardline) muslims are displaying has caused people to think this. No doubt the hardline have distorted things way out of proportion, but that is the image that is portrayed in the west. You can't deny that the public image of islam at present is not too favourable.
noisetonepause wrote:Keyser Soze wrote:
Which ayat are you referring to? Please do quote, but remember the rules: You quote the whole ayah and the context. The only way the radicals can justify their actions are by not quoting the text properly, as far as I've seen. Also, reading the Qur'an will tell an outsider little about how Islam is implemented and understood - see Mohammed Arkoun's concepts of 'the Qur'anic fact' vs 'the Islamic fact', I don't know exactly where he presents the idea, but basically you should not confuse what's in the book with what muslims believe, especially not since that book is pretty open to interpretation, as history shows. Reading the commentaries and other works of muslim clerics is a much better way to go. Most of it has only been translated from Arabic to Persian, though. As I understand.
PS - My English seems to be at an all time low today. I've tried to correct my mistakes, but if I'm not making sense, just say so.
First of all, you are making sense. I am no expert on the Qur'an so to ask me quote within context is not at this point within my capacity. But once again I will say that if there is misinterpretation by radicals, it is the face of islam that most people in the west perceive.
I am no expert. Far from it. My original comments are really pointing out how islam is perceived by the majority of westerners. I myself know many muslims who are not in the least bit radical and are decent people. So please do not misunderstand that I have anti islamic tendancies.
Keaton always said, "I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him." Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze.
). Found it interesting that it's the first diplomatic communication we've had from Tehran since 1979.