Max for Live - first impressions?

[4/4]

I have been thinking and talking with M4L beta testers about ... and how to possibly sell and distribute devices...

How's about the same way they have been for years ?
What's up with all the shills coming out of the woodwork ?

As a device developer who may have spent months building a complicated, one of a kind, effect, do I share it to a community who does not give me anything back? I think a lot of people are thinking this already. They all signed up because they want to use other peoples devices but very few are willing to share yet.

No offence, but this is just short sighted rubbish imo. How has the max community been getting by up until now ? You talk like max msp hasn't been thriving already for years.

But you can't ignore the leeching point.

Leech is a pretty evocative choice of words, as I've pointed out (and it doesn't even need pointing out) people also IMPROVE and MODIFY the patches they download and as such the patches become more stable on various system specs, and evolve etc. This has been working out fine for years. Anyone who's wanted to sell their stuff has. I bought and donated towards several max/msp created FX & Instruments. I like the community environment the way it is, and a store-centric environment is anathema imo.

Ultimately if M4L is to be a development platform where people will sell their work, there will need to be a way for the masses to use it without the $300 entry fee. So if that becomes a goal for Ableton with M4L they will HAVE TO provide a runtime for this. (especially since Pluggo is no more).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pluggo isn't 'no more', it's going to be repackaged as content with M4L ?

No clear right answer but I thought elaborating on the leeching point was necessary. I can certainly see keeping devices to myself if I felt like sharing was a one way street.

Are you new to max msp ? You come across as an opportunistic shill who hasn't spent much time in the maxmsp community previous to M4L, no offence.

[nebulae]

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= NOISE I DON'T BOTHER READING. *YAWN*

[Tone Deft]

the fanboy response, making less music.

blow me.

why do I need your approval of what I do in my home? if I want to play with jitter or make silly noises and blinky lights with max/msp I really don't give a shit what you think of it.

guys like you are just whining how you don't want this. great, we get it, but you're doing nothing but whining. it's not interesting to read. let people enjoy m4L, you can go enjoy a wank in the mirror.

*yawn* your bipolar rants get so old so fast.

You don't need my approval. Just like I don't need yours to complain as much as I fucking want, when I fucking want, as loudly as I fucking want. Don't like it? Don't fucking read it.

Anyone wants to pay $299 to enjoy M4L, be my guest. No no, be Ableton's guest. Help them succeed. So they can put out a cheap or freebie runtime version on your dime. I thank all of you in advance.

As far as what's interesting to read, I guarantee you that a good debate is ALWAYS interesting to read. However your bipolar insipid rants are actually EVEN MORE interesting to read if only to LOL at how off the wall you seem. It's like watching Jon Stewart show a republican talking head do an complete 180 in their rhetoric from something they said two years ago. You don't even need to make a joke about it to LOL. But it sure ain't a debate because you get so personal so quickly. Whatevs, dude, you lost this argument three fanboy posts ago.

I'll make you a deal. Write a Max patch that lets me blow you while enjoying a wank in the mirror, and I'll pay $299. Until then STFU and make some blinky music. Bitch.

what are you complaining about? people want to buy something you're too dumb to get into. other than that it's little more than a personal attack. nice.

you're too narrow minded to understand that there are entire communities of people out there making fun things with max/msp and jitter. it's that cool region where science meets art, I love that shit. think past your own little world lawyer boy, I'm a hardware engineer, I love audio, why would this appeal to me? can you figure it out?

[4/4]

@nebulae
I know you're trolling but whatever I'll take the bait - It is a shame when it comes to those kind of quote/retort posts - I'll give you that, but sometimes it's easier to keep track of the discussion that way when there is alot of points to address.

It's an interesting discussion to me as I've been using max in some way for years.
what about you ?

[nebulae]

Tone Deft FTW!

[citizenchris099]

how many presets will it ship with?

[nebulae]

@4/4 I find Max interesting, but I've never used it because it's too expensive and it doesn't help me make my music. This is all subjective to me, and I make no judgments about you. If you like it, more power to you!

My first real experience with it was at Namm 08, where I met with the Max team at the Ableton booth. The first thing one of the founders said was something to the effect of "Max is horrible software. Hard to use, and way too many options." I know he was being facetious, but I think it landed on me in this sense...Max lets you do anything you can dream up - which is great for tinkering, but really bad for making music. I'm a firm believer that the the more options you have the less you get done. And for me, getting music done takes precedence over tinkering. Again, entirely subjective.

As for the quote/response stuff, I was just yanking your chain. To me, it's noise, and I just gloss over it. I think you can make your arguments in cohesive sentences and well-thought out prose without adding to the noise.

Debate onward!

[nebulae]

how many presets will it ship with?

best post yet!

[4/4]

@nebulae
I know you're trolling but whatever I'll take the bait - It is a shame when it comes to those kind of quote/retort posts - I'll give you that, but sometimes it's easier to keep track of the discussion that way when there is alot of points to address.

It's an interesting discussion to me as I've been using max in some way for years.
what about you ?

I have been using the very successful iphone app store (where there is a shit load of free apps) for ages, how about you?

Not sure what that's got to do with the post you quoted. Anywho I know what you're referring to and I think you're trying to be a bit of pedant ? No ?

My point is quite simple, as I've been saying and as I just recently said in your 'app store' Poll-thread:

The max/msp/jitter community have been sharing/distributing/improving/evolving and sometimes selling patches & objects for years in an environment that encourages sharing ala creative commons. The paradigm here is SHARE and sell if you like.

Your idea is to completely flip the paradigm, for no good reason other than you have an iphone, into something that is SELL and share if you like.


Pure poison in my humble-I've-actually-been-using-max-msp-for-years opinion.

[nebulae]

@4/4 Just wondering why selling presets is poison. Has it been bad that people make presets for Live tools and sell them? Like Puremagnetik and Covert Ops? And if not, how is that different from Max patch developers? Just wondering what you think, not asking dickishly.

[LOFA]

Neb went to Bronx Science. Nothing dumb about Neb.

Personally I sometimes wish I spent the last five years learning C++ or Objective C than max msp, so I can understand when someone would rather just make music than beta test and redevelop the wheel (or develop "other wheels".)

I think Neb will probably come around though. Once max objects become as common on this board as political rants it will be too tempting not to throw our hardwired 2 cents in.

[citizenchris099]

how many presets will it ship with?

best post yet!

lol sarcasm?

I mean...what can I say I'm a preset guy. I'm not one to program my own patches. I tend to spend the limited amount of time I have to work on music ...actually composing/creating tracks. Thats not intended as a stab at sound designers (hobbyist or professional)
Now whatever you would call them for Max and or Max4Live...patches, devices whatever....the only way I would even think about dropping coin on this thing is if it came w/some great.....presets.

[4/4]

@4/4 Just wondering why selling presets is poison. Has it been bad that people make presets for Live tools and sell them? Like Puremagnetik and Covert Ops? And if not, how is that different from Max patch developers? Just wondering what you think, not asking dickishly.

Seriously, am I not speaking in simple enough english or something?
The practise of selling patches in itself is not poison, I've gladly bought patches and donated when really it wasn't necessary.


I'm talking about the environment. The environment has ALWAYS been about sharing/refining/redistributing ala creative commons for years and years. People have also sold their works successfully, on their own initiative.

What's being proposed here is a store-centric environment where SELLING comes first and SHARING becomes the option. A complete 180 flip in paradigm.

[nebulae]

@LOFA - I have no doubt that I'll eventually come around. Like I did with Suite 8. Deep down, I'm a fanboy too. But my issue is with pricing, and with allowing us to play with patches at a lower price point. But yeah, ya pegged me.

[citizenchris099]

What's being proposed here is a store-centric environment where SELLING comes first and SHARING becomes the option. A complete 180 flip in paradigm.

is the paradigm you're speaking of the Max paradigm?

I can see your point...though I can see how an "app store" like set up would encourage more patches.