Logic gets Ableton Style audio

bensuthers · Post by **bensuthers** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:02 am

ableton live is fantastic as it is right now.

the only thing they should consider is

ableton 'studio' with some midi features.

but as we all discovered, midi is useless unless you take it to the extent logic et al have.

whereas ableton live is simple powerful and effective.

claudek · Post by **claudek** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:32 am

I'm not worried about Ableton..they will always be 1 step ahead.

Per Boysen · Post by **Per Boysen** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:41 am

claudek wrote: Ableton..they will always be 1 step ahead.

"Different" might be more correct. I can't see other programs following Live. Well... Numerology does also make performance power a priority, but as Num doesen't do audio (only midi) it doesen't compete with Live

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:04 pm

I think 16 bit is rivaling Mr. Wildstyle now....

I would like to see midi, but am beginning to think it would be fun if it weren't implemented just to watch 16 bit freak out.

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:48 pm

I am confused... I thought the name of the software was "Live" and not "We are making another crappy DAW". What the guys/gals at Ableton are doing right now is amazing and I am consumed with trying to implement all of my current ideas about Live's applications. If Live4 has midi sequencing great... but, I would sure like to see more innovative offerings then just another midi sequencer. Of course I could be bias because MIDI seems to pretty much suck. I think it is time for a revolution in the peripherals bussiness because MIDI lags just about as much as riding a horse to work. Anybody heard of this stuff called firewire(IEEE 1394)? Why the hell are we not using something like this instead of MIDI? I can hook my camcorder to my PC and rip movies all day long but I can't hook my new Roland Synth up to this extremely fast I/O port? Lets evolve... Please!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:17 pm

Moody wrote: I am confused... I thought the name of the software was "Live" and not "We are making another crappy DAW". What the guys/gals at Ableton are doing right now is amazing and I am consumed with trying to implement all of my current ideas about Live's applications. If Live4 has midi sequencing great... but, I would sure like to see more innovative offerings then just another midi sequencer. Of course I could be bias because MIDI seems to pretty much suck.

Personally I think using a midi fader/knob box with Live kicks ass.... midi is at least good for that right?

I don't see why adding (more) midi functionality to Live would make it "another crappy DAW". (and where is that crappy DAW that so resembles Live+midi because I would like to own it!

). I believe midi could be treated/related-to in a very similar fashion to audio in Live, and I have faith that ableton would implement midi in a way that is consistent with the paradigm they've already established (for recording, launching, tweaking loops of information ("audio" in this case)).

-scotty

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:20 pm

I have to agree. When you look at how the video/film making and animation industry has evolved, and some of the things the are now possible in that field, the audio world looks to be still hanging around in the dark ages. It's like the old marshall stack/strat/les paul thing in a way, musos cling to the past terribly. Software companies releasing more and more digital versions of old analogue synths, sequencers that still look and feel like the original Atari software, we still use a contoller that was invented along with the bloody harpsichord! Probably earlier come to think of it. We should have a control system with WAY more increments than 0-127 shouldn't we?

loophead · Post by **loophead** » Tue May 11, 2004 7:22 pm

What is missing in this discussion is the fact that the paradigm shift is not merely 'elastic audio' but the Sessions view. For me the break away from a linear 'piano-roll' formatted tool is the key to Ableton Live which I truly love. I love it so much I do not want to be forced outside it thereby breaking my creative output. I own DP4. I am looking at Plogue Biddle, Numerology, Logic et.al. Reason and the other 'Rack' simulators force you to use there synths..great if you like 'their synths'...

But to my knowledge, and if anyone knows of a Mac solution PLEASE, PLEASE let me know of it, ALL of these products behave in a linear piano-roll paradigm, therefore rendering them useless.

I for one am not looking for the be-all-end-all midi sequencer. Merely the ability to fire off midi sequences with a scene, as I am doing with audio. This would let me build a library of midi sequences as I have a library of audio 'sequences'. The nay sayers are in my opinion looking to closely to there own wishlist.

We all have a wishlist....loop without warp, reverse-loop, extending loopmarkers past the audio to put too short loops back in a better reference, master solo disengage, more sends (I work in surround), non paired outputs so I can choose ANY combination of outs as a given "pair", preference page that can remember so if my rack is not powered up it will default to (in my case) core audio....some of which have work-arounds some of which do not...

Everyone has a set of desires that we would like to see to allow us to be more creative with our tools. But please look past yourselves and realize that other users have valid points regardless of how you work. I hope that Ableton as a team is smart enough to see past YOU and implement some of the mandatory features to allow their customers to solve what some of us see as insolvable any other way. And again if someone knows of a solution PLEASE tell me.

One post gave a very nice jpg (www.david-e.de/Live_4.jpg) as to what this might look like. If you do not use midi great ! Don't use it, just as I may never use some feature which you rely on daily. But people, we are all here trying to create, please stop trying to screw the rest of us who have shown a strong need for a particular feature.

Thanks and try to understand. Maybe we will help you in support of that feature you have wanted...

The duke · Post by **The duke** » Tue May 11, 2004 9:29 pm

If you dont like middi

the dont use it.

Live will still do exactly what it did before. Ok

meanwhile the rest of us who do want it will get on with playing and sequencing VSti's like Spectrasonics atmosphere or absynth right inside Live.

i can tell you it IS coming .
say no more

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 11, 2004 11:10 pm

Logic has 'Touch TracksMidi loops that can be triggered by a key note...

Live's cool for audio but without 'transient' detection the fidelity sucks for time stretching really...many others do 'transient' detection (Acid, AppleLoops, Melodyne) .

bigbadotis · Post by **bigbadotis** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:40 am

The tradeoff is that the programming resources of Ableton are not going towards the audio elements of the program, optimization etc. if they are spending time implementing MIDI.

So it does make a difference to people who don't want MIDI whether or not it is added.

Personally, I'll be happy in either of the two situations:

1. Live gets MIDI and I can sequence my soft synths inside of it.
2. Live doesn't get MIDI and the programming resources go towards optimization and additional audio features.

But there IS a tradeoff. I really don't think it's accurate to say that the people who don't want MIDI do not have good reasons for it.

oh · Post by oh » Wed May 12, 2004 9:44 am

bigbadotis wrote:The tradeoff is that the programming resources of Ableton are not going towards the audio elements of the program, optimization etc. if they are spending time implementing MIDI.

So it does make a difference to people who don't want MIDI whether or not it is added.

Personally, I'll be happy in either of the two situations:

1. Live gets MIDI and I can sequence my soft synths inside of it.
2. Live doesn't get MIDI and the programming resources go towards optimization and additional audio features.

But there IS a tradeoff. I really don't think it's accurate to say that the people who don't want MIDI do not have good reasons for it.

ok so what specific tradeoff in audio development do you see ? What audio wise is missing in live at the moment that you feel would receive marginalised development with the introduction of midi ?
you seem pretty sure how thought out is your argument ?

bigbadotis · Post by **bigbadotis** » Wed May 12, 2004 1:54 pm

I don't want to get into a "this audio feature is more important than that MIDI feature" type of thing... the different features are going to be important to different users. Plus, MIDI would be useful to me.

For the sake of discussion, some people have asked for:

1. Better performance on Macs
2. Reversing clips
3. More MIDI control of clip parameters
4. Better options for on-the-fly looping of real instruments as opposed to playback of premade loops.
5. Multiple audio input/output devices
6. multichannel audio

etc... etc...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:31 pm

solid list there bigbadotis. That said, I still don't understand people critcising Live's on-the-fly looping. I've owned most of the hardware loopers, and sold them all once I got live. I perform in a duo that uses Live to loop bass, guitar, keys, and with FL Studio rewired, drums--all-live no pre-recorded clips or loops. Live works awesome if you have a midi foot pedal and intelligent midi controller layout--I couldn't ask for any more other than re-sample/overdub--like the ability to record into the sends or something. Thats the only change to you list I'd make--change the on-the-fly thing to give us overdub/resample.

Ryan

a DJ · Post by **a DJ** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:21 pm

i gotta react to this "16 bit" guy ...jeesus
i never seen such a ******
slagging people of coz thye think different or thye arent as intteligent as his royal higness.....

evrybody has their oppinion and "live" can be used in different ways, but if u feel like theres something better on the market ...go for it...so my advice to 16 bit is:

"go awaaaayyyy""

TT4N

Logic gets Ableton Style audio

Confused

Re: Confused

midi and Vsti hosting