Ableton vs Logic engine

[mikb]

That said, if people rate Logic as sounding better than Live because the plugins are better, got to wonder what they are listening to.

I think we should realize that those judgements was largely made in the past about previous versions of both Live and Logic.
As I wrote earlier I and my co-producer feel that *our AL8 projects* sound better when opened in AL9. Whether that is our imagination or not is open for debate and I'm not claiming everyone would agree with us even with fully identical set ups. These songs are mostly instrument tracks with MIDI and some audio loops and different plug-ins, both native and third-party.

However, it is possible for a DAW to do a better job in practice playing back such an assortment of tracks than another on a specific set of hardware. Audio cracks, for instance, can be very subtle in their duration and severity to the point where you can be unaware of them even if they are there, yet they might affect how you perceive the sound being played back to you.

I don't really care if Logic did "sound better" in the past. I do care that Ableton Live 9 sounds great. If the new Logic sounds great when it does its job I'm all for that as well, but I won't switch back. Though new machine and new audio card is inevitable. But isn't that always the case, no matter what you use?

[Sage]

That said, if people rate Logic as sounding better than Live because the plugins are better, got to wonder what they are listening to.

I think we should realize that those judgements was largely made in the past about previous versions of both Live and Logic.

I was going against convention and saying some of Live's are better than those of Logic's. Not being subjective, for example Logic's comp distorts quite heavily and nastily when going beyond like 6dB of gain reduction, truly awful.
Yet it still has a reputation for great plugins despite the majority having been untouched for like 10 years.

[beats me]

Here’s a thought. Know your room and speakers well and you should be able to dial in great sound on any DAW.

I don’t and so I use Logic.

[trevox]

Think you can trust your ears?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

An interesting watch! I kinda sit on the fence with the whole argument and just use whatever I feel I can trust these days. I have said in the past that Live seems a bit "deader" than say Logic and whether it is perception rather than reality is up for debate. I'm not really arsed debating any more - I choose what I use and get on with it. Some of the stuff shown in that video was ridiculous!

Interestingly, I started using the Waves NLS plugins and while I did not notice the difference with the NLS plugin on a single track (I did similar tests as in the video with my eyes closed and guessed wrong a lot), I did tests where I sent 8 tracks summed in an NLS bus and the same 8 tracks with no NLS plugins and I really did notice the difference - or at least when I opened my eyes, I had guessed right which one I was listening to every time! Even though these plugins are incredibly subtle, I find all tracks sitting better in the mix even before I start doing any serious EQing, dynamics etc. Is it my imagination? Well I did the blind test thing and the fact I got it right pretty much every time gives me confidence in the fact it does actually make a difference for the better!

love NLS..
but..first.. contrary to belief.. NLS does not do actual summing
only emulates the gain stage freq response for many different channels + the master bus sampled off some famous desks..
adding that layer (only a taste really) of analog nonlinearity voodoo

second.. I agree with Sage.. it's not really a good comparison..
NLS is meant to make you sound closer to outside the box.. the OP wants a comparison for DAW sound.. which is not meant to color..
basically he's talking about the "engine" that handles volume.. panning timing ...latency and summing (adding)..
(and now I understand.. we're comparing stock fx plugins too?)
the whole shebang

third.. when you did the blind test.. did you remember to set the gains to be exactly the same in both subjects?
because the way we perceive (even slight) volume boost can give us the illusion that something sounds "better".. when actually it's slightly louder..

fourth..what is your monitoring environment like? do you think it's adequate to perceive the difference between "better"/"worse" "DAW sound"?
is anyone really equipped to answer that question..
the best I've seen so far is graphs comparing sample rate conversion between DAW
and I've seen me some DAW comparisons.. and participated in elaborate blind tests

maybe a better term would be Logic vs. Live "DAW character"?
but then.. why aren't we throwing ProTools Cubendo Reaper Studio One etc. into the comparison?

if you ask me .. once again..
it's all about personal workflow.. the rest is hype..
most of the elements in this ting aren't really comparable.. and if they are...
then the differences are marginal at best..

I get your points and I wasn't drawing a comparison between the summing in two different DAWS and using the NLS plugins. Guess my point was slightly off topic, but my main point was that I found a way of mixing audio that I feel makes a difference (for the good) and negates this pointless debate - for me anyway.

[mikb]

[ I found a way of mixing audio that I feel makes a difference (for the good) and negates this pointless debate - for me anyway.

That's wonderful of course, but debating what is good sound is never pointless. I found the excellent references to Ethan Winers Acoustic FAQ http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html and the Music Player Network http://www.musicplayer.com/ via Tarekiths interesting youtube post as well as different perspectives on sound right here. Very nice!

[mikb]

Know your room and speakers well and you should be able to dial in great sound on any DAW.

I don’t and so I use Logic.

Actually I'm sure no-one believes that you believe using Logic makes knowing your room unnecessary.

[beats me]

Know your room and speakers well and you should be able to dial in great sound on any DAW.

I don’t and so I use Logic.

Actually I'm sure no-one believes that you believe using Logic makes knowing your room unnecessary.

I’ll just say with close to zero change in my production skills or knowledge when I switched to Logic people started complimenting me on aspects of my music that they never did when it was getting spit out of Live.

[mikb]

[
I’ll just say with close to zero change in my production skills or knowledge when I switched to Logic people started complimenting me on aspects of my music that they never did when it was getting spit out of Live.

That's the exact opposite experience to what I've had. When I finally took up using Live, ideas started to get out of my head and into actual sound waves that moves me, instead of the pretty nice sounds that I didn't want but that I had made so far in Logic.

Which give me renewed interest and focus in the finer details of production.

[BoddAH]

When comparing any DAWs, only the integrated effects sound different. The recording should be exactly the same and you can easily verify this by importing or recording two identical sound files, inverting the phase on one and seing that they cancel each other out and that the result is silence.

[mikb]

When comparing any DAWs, only the integrated effects sound different. The recording should be exactly the same and you can easily verify this by importing or recording two identical sound files, inverting the phase on one and seing that they cancel each other out and that the result is silence.

Really? That's the first time I've heard that in this thread. Today.

Also you're missing some obvious recent hints why your test is somewhat irrelevant as far as actual listening is concerned. Listening is usually involved in music production.

[mikb]

if you ask me .. once again..
it's all about personal workflow.. the rest is hype..
most of the elements in this ting aren't really comparable.. and if they are...
then the differences are marginal at best..

When everything technical works as designed I think you hit the issue on its head there. However, personal workflow and DAW interaction, especially intuitively oriented so, do affect the choices made in subtle ways and will most likely affect the final product ever so slightly. It's up to the producer to make the very subjective tool choices (unless these have been done already by some other involved party).

[Sage]

When comparing any DAWs, only the integrated effects sound different. The recording should be exactly the same and you can easily verify this by importing or recording two identical sound files, inverting the phase on one and seing that they cancel each other out and that the result is silence.

Really? That's the first time I've heard that in this thread. Today.

Also you're missing some obvious recent hints why your test is somewhat irrelevant as far as actual listening is concerned. Listening is usually involved in music production.

But if you're hearing a difference when it can be proven that there is not one, surely that only proves your own perception cannot be trusted and in that case, more likely in the wrong industry?

[Tarekith]

I think it's interesting the direction this thread took compared to when this same question was brought up just a couple years ago.

[timothyallan]

But if you're hearing a difference when it can be proven that there is not one, surely that only proves your own perception cannot be trusted and in that case, more likely in the wrong industry?

Love it, and so true.

[PAA]

I just yesterday, removed pro tools 10/ 11 and cubase 6.5 / 7 from my computer. Trashed them.

I'm left with Logic X and Live suite 9. The most stable for me.

I was fed up with errors in pro tools (6101's) and cubase's slowness and unstableness.

IMO I always felt pro tools sounded better than the other 3 daws mentioned. Not interested in what other people think.

Anyway, enough people make quality records in Live, and thats what I'm choosing as my full time DAW.


SSL G series compressor / Live 9

PS I never listen to anyone's online opinion when it comes to music equipment.

There's more jealousy and snobbery in the music business than in the fashion industry.