[OT] Making America great again?

[Tone Deft]

KK - sorry, I was over the top on that one, I respect your musical knowlege more than that.

Popular music these days is pathetic, no doubt, check the grammies tonight. The only highlight is an opening act that broke up decades ago. I don't know if there's anything as obvious as Country Joe and the Fish that's IN THE LYRICS, surely artists say stuff off the stage (Kanye West, Dixie Chicks, etc.) but I'm blanking on a recent tune that really sticks it to the man.

I was watching Chapelle's movie 'Block Party' last night and the lyrics of Mos Def, Jill Scott and others had some very positive, very strong, thoughtful imagery for not only black people but all people, as a middle class 34 year old white male I get inspiration from the lyrics too. Tupac's thug life movement was/is a HUGE social movement, it acknowleges that the lifestyle exists and deals with it head on.

anyway... I'm going to go explore that thing people call 'going outside' whatever that is.

[nebulae]

anyway... I'm going to go explore that thing people call 'going outside' whatever that is.

While you are "outside" make sure you "stick it to the man" by flipping off a cop.

[djadonis206]

While I admit the days of early Public Enemy, NWA, BDP etc where the good ole days of hip hop

I personally enjoy the hip hop today - and admittedly the less they talk about real issues the more I'm interested

the less I can actually understand the thick almost unitelligle southern accents the better

the more money, cars (chevy's in particular), rims and candy coated paint jobs the better for this one right here

I'm not kidding - I have a hard enough time following all the problems of the world including my own to be bogged down by inspirational uplifting music

when I listen to music I want to be entertained not educated

[ethios4]

Perhaps the biggest difference between Vietnam-era dissent and current dissent is that the Vietnam-era was fueled by draft protest? I'm not sure, but it seems like we have much much more information access now than we did then, yet there is less protest in America about what is going on. Lack of compulsory participation makes it easy for people to look the other way while our government does what it wants. Sometimes I think the draft should be reinstated to ensure that citizens have a vested interest in their government's military policy.

I wasn't around then, so I have no idea what it felt like in the 60's/70's....

[M. Bréqs]

Sometimes I think the draft should be reinstated to ensure that citizens have a vested interest in their government's military policy.

I wasn't around then, so I have no idea what it felt like in the 60's/70's....

You don't need a draft for that. If the United States mobilized their industrial base to wage total war, society would be much more involved than they are now.

The draft is detrimental to the modern war effort. Non-volunteer forces are next to useless on the modern battlefield. Perhaps when the total skill necessary in soldiering was lining up next to another clueless peasant, walking forward with your musket line abreast and shooting in the general direction you were told when you were told, conscipts could manage. But with the level of technological, tactical and sociological finess necessary to wage modern war, conscripts are a hindrance.

However, if American society had to actually (gasp) make a SACRIFICE for the war effort, then it would have much more impact.

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

[djadonis206]

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

now that's a joke right?

[M. Bréqs]

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

now that's a joke right?

No joke.

If your society is going to fight a war, do it fucking right and do it all the way or don't do it at all.

[djadonis206]

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

now that's a joke right?

No joke.

If your society is going to fight a war, do it fucking right and do it all the way or don't do it at all.

wow

huh?

well if we want to fight the war 'right' we'd put all the mexicans and blacks on the front lines then right? women would be forced to work the factories while real men went and fought for our beloved country correct...perhaps we should just go back to living like we did during world war 2 if we want to do it the 'right' way ah?

[Machinesworking]

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

now that's a joke right?

No joke.

If your society is going to fight a war, do it fucking right and do it all the way or don't do it at all.

Thing is it's not a war in the sense that Vietnam was even. We won already, we're just dealing with the aftermath of colonizing a territory. Look at the actual numbers of dead US soldiers, 3,000 + isn't much if you look at other wars. Why on earth would we want to ration things beck here because the natives in Iraq are restless? In the national subconscious of America I think it is believed we are simply supposed to be enjoying the benefits of conquest at this point. I think the main reason that people are upset at Bush in the US now isn't that he staged a war based on deliberately falsified evidence from the pentagon, preemptive strikes are wrong etc., but more we are mad because we have yet to see the price of gas drop.
I am being serious about that, no joke.

[M. Bréqs]

now that's a joke right?

No joke.

If your society is going to fight a war, do it fucking right and do it all the way or don't do it at all.

wow

That's sad. Why? Because what makes me say "wow" is that you're shocked at the realization of what it takes to win. Since Napoleon, wars have been waged by societies, not just heads of state. All of society was involved in every major war since the end of the 18th century. This current conflict is the historical anomaly.

Adonis, if your reaction is typical of other Westerners (and I have the distinct impresison that it is) then it's just another indicator of how fucked we are. War without sacrifice on the part of society is a recipe for failure all around.

The citizenry have no incentive to actually win the war;
They have no incentive to demand assurance that their cause is just;
Strategic resources (like food, fuel, steel) are wasted on consumer goods instead of the war effort
The soldiers are alienated when they return, feeling that they've unfairly shouldered the entire burden

The list goes on.

[djadonis206]

incredible you think that way -

you actually believe the government should tell it's citizens how to support their troops when at war?

so what if they don't want to - execution? jail? monetary penalties?

thank god someone like Watada stood up for people who can think for themselves (even if he was / is in the military)

1984 here we come I guess...wow

[ethios4]

The citizenry have no incentive to actually win the war;
They have no incentive to demand assurance that their cause is just;
Strategic resources (like food, fuel, steel) are wasted on consumer goods instead of the war effort
The soldiers are alienated when they return, feeling that they've unfairly shouldered the entire burden

Exactly. War has been made on easy on citizens, so when the question of invading another country arises people don't consider it as cautiously as they should. It blows my mind that some people are now against the war because the casualties are mounting, and the cost is rising.....hello? war involves casualties, sacrifice, costs!? People should have thought of the reality of war before consenting to it.

[M. Bréqs]

incredible you think that way -

you actually believe the government should tell it's citizens how to support their troops when at war?

so what if they don't want to - execution? jail? monetary penalties?

thank god someone like Watada stood up for people who can think for themselves (even if he was / is in the military)

1984 here we come I guess...wow

Then its incumbent on the citizenry to oppose war that the citizenry doesn't want. If there's no consequence of war to the citizenry, then there's no incentive to NOT wage war, and there's no incentive to oppose unjustified war.

[spiral]

a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down....



































in the most delightful way

[djadonis206]

incredible you think that way -

you actually believe the government should tell it's citizens how to support their troops when at war?

so what if they don't want to - execution? jail? monetary penalties?

thank god someone like Watada stood up for people who can think for themselves (even if he was / is in the military)

1984 here we come I guess...wow

Then its incumbent on the citizenry to oppose war that the citizenry doesn't want. If there's no consequence of war to the citizenry, then there's no incentive to NOT wage war, and there's no incentive to oppose unjustified war.

no, it's the right of every free citizen to choose how they want to support or oppose something they believe or don't believe in...