//\\//\\Ten Reasons NOT to pay for ableton//\\//\\

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:31 pm

b0unce wrote:anyways ladies,
I'm tuning out of this discussion now.
Its obviously a farce if I've got people asking me if I've been in touch with the sample company, if I'm sure the nki's work in kontakt - etc. I made my point, I made observations on the ableton business model in another thread and I backed it up with facts when it was demanded of me. make of that what you will. and ask yourself if you're letting standards slip.

Big ups!

The only standards that I see slipping are what you call fact and we call opinion.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:31 pm

No,

none of the orchestral collection is included in suite

thats $950 additional content
_________________

Indeed.

Also for the record, somebody mentioned SONAR as a Windows alternative... SONAR 7 seems to include a massive pile of goodies - just like Logic 8 does for Mac users - and also costs less (to a new customer) than the basic version of Live 7 without any Ableton instruments.

SONAR 7 includes among others:

z3ta+ synth (previously Eur 149)
Pentagon I (Eur 99)
Roland V-Vocal (unavailable elsewhere, but worth $100s)
Perfect Space (previously ? $69 from Voxengo)
Vintage Channel (i.e. Kjaerhus GAC1, $198)
Sonitus fx:Suite ($200)
Dinension LE including Garritan Orchestra samples
Rapture LE
Lexicon Surround Reverb
Various new Mastering effects including linear phase EQ and multiband

The point is, all this stuff is worth the asking price, including the Ableton stuff which is great. But in the more competitive world of 2007 it is becoming standard to bundle such stuff in order to remain competitive.

Even Digidesign are now giving away a fully working version of their new sampler...

toxictobi · Post by **toxictobi** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:02 pm

I´m with b0unce on this one.
I used Live since V2.0, I´ve paid for every fuckin "update", despite sampler, so all in all around 1200€ for my V6.0.7.
I´m really tired of payin & supporting
a company once in year, that actually fools me

I´ll better buy Hardware in future with some OS-Updates I don´t have to pay for

Gimme that L7-Crack!!!

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:03 pm

b0unce wrote:I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter

NICE ONE -

its only a products - up & coming newsletter, and a Q&A on products.

You wouldnt beleive how many Audiofire 2's i sold this year with at least 60% of buyers emailing me to say that ist faulty cos the sound is only coming out of the left speaker.

i could copy and paste the answer:

"I think i know what your problem is - the 2 outputs at the back of the audiofire are both mono outs, output 1 should be connected to the left speaker or amplifier channel and output 2 should be connected to the right

let me know if you have any more difficulties"

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:05 pm

b0unce wrote:anyways ladies,
I'm tuning out of this discussion now.
Its obviously a farce if I've got people asking me if I've been in touch with the sample company, if I'm sure the nki's work in kontakt - etc. I made my point, I made observations on the ableton business model in another thread and I backed it up with facts when it was demanded of me. make of that what you will. and ask yourself if you're letting standards slip.

Big ups!

Good Riddance

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:07 pm

toxictobi wrote:I´m with b0unce on this one.
I used Live since V2.0, I´ve paid for every fuckin "update", despite sampler, so all in all around 1200€ for my V6.0.7.
I´m really tired of payin & supporting
a company once in year, that actually fools me
I´ll better buy Hardware in future with some OS-Updates I don´t have to pay for
Gimme that L7-Crack!!!

I think they should have a cheaper upgrade fee for people upgrading 1 or 2 versions, and then the usual for everyone else.

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 pm

I personally think that when you look at Live compared to other DAW's,

it is one of the most expensive ones now - whereas previously it was one of the cheaper ones.

i will be upgrading to AL7 suite cos its good value for money as i don't have operator or sampler already so paying the difference on upgrade is worth it.

It is my DAW of choice - even though i have logic studio also, and i am happy to pay the subcription/upgrade fee's, cos i think its worth paying for the program.

(I do use both but if i had to choose it would be LIVE, although soundtrack pro is brilliant)

B0unce's gripe with ableton appears to be with Sampler, is it not?
surely Ableton should be giving instrument fixes seperate to the main program, as they are additionally bought products.

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:28 pm

b0unce wrote:
wilxon wrote:
peeddrroo wrote:i'm wondering where you got .nki's without kontakt or another NI sample player?
weren't those .nki's delivered with another sampler format?

plus, you know that sampler's limitations (only 1 "zone") won't allow you to play the .nki's as they were originally designed?
maybe you should get the software they were originally meant to be played with....

I don't know what you're laughing at, jackass

Maybe he's laughing at you?

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:28 pm

wilxon wrote: surely Ableton should be giving instrument fixes seperate to the main program, as they are additionally bought products.

+1 million.

While I don't really agree with where bOunce is *at* in this thread, I do think this is essential. If Ableton want to charge seperately for the instruments (which I'm not totally sure they should anyway) then they absolutely HAVE to provide fixes seperate to the live upgrade.

I think the way they are doing this actually lacks integrity, and my estimation of them as a business has definitely gone down as a result of this specific thing.

If Ableton guys are still reading this thread - please, please, please rethink this policy. You have not chosen the *right* path with this imho.

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:30 pm

b0unce wrote:
peeddrroo wrote:
b0unce wrote:I bought them from a company who specialise in sample libraries. It came in a format SAMPLER does not deal with, halion or something, plus NKI, plus soundfont. the soundfonts aren't as high-fidelity as the samples referenced by the NKI's. SAMPLER is supposed to work with nkis, so I bought some nkis.
have you tried playing those nki's with some NI software? do they play fine?
have you contacted this company? what's its name by the way?

b0unce wrote:go to HELL
i'm on my way.
looking forward to meeting you.
yes, the nki's play fine in NI software. and now that live 7 can import the libraries , albeit randomly for now, SAMPLER plays the nki's exactly as kontakt does...only a slight volume difference. ask amaury.

of course I contacted the company , way back in march. we have ruled them out of the equation. They have been as helpful as possible. it's certainly an ableton issue. OK??? Jeesus, get with the program or read the god damn thread[s] before throwing your hat in the ring.

The Dude: Look, nothing is fucked, here, man.
The Big Lebowski: Nothing is fucked?
[shouting]
The Big Lebowski: The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain!

http://www.store.precisionsound.net/

Classic!!!!

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:38 pm

toxictobi wrote:I´m with b0unce on this one.
I used Live since V2.0, I´ve paid for every fuckin "update", despite sampler, so all in all around 1200€ for my V6.0.7.
I´m really tired of payin & supporting
a company once in year, that actually fools me
I´ll better buy Hardware in future with some OS-Updates I don´t have to pay for
Gimme that L7-Crack!!!

Me too, man, been using Live since 1.5, paid for every update.

wilxon · Post by **wilxon** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:45 pm

headquest wrote:
wilxon wrote: surely Ableton should be giving instrument fixes seperate to the main program, as they are additionally bought products.
+1 million.

While I don't really agree with where bOunce is *at* in this thread, I do think this is essential. If Ableton want to charge seperately for the instruments (which I'm not totally sure they should anyway) then they absolutely HAVE to provide fixes seperate to the live upgrade.

I think the way they are doing this actually lacks integrity, and my estimation of them as a business has definitely gone down as a result of this specific thing.

If Ableton guys are still reading this thread - please, please, please rethink this policy. You have not chosen the *right* path with this.

Just to play devils advocate,

The part which may complicate things here is that the instruments are written into the program, and bug fixes for the instruments need to be included with bug fixes for Live.

Maybe abes have re written a large area of live - which could be a major recoding in the program to actually fix the sampler bug.

therefore impossible to release a bug fix for sampler in live 6.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:53 pm

I'll join the devil's advocate debate

I think that an improvement or addition to a product counts as an upgrade which it is fair game to charge for. A bug-fix, however, is essentially mending something that was broken in the product already paid for. In any other product category it would be regarded as the manufacturer's responsibility to mend the poroblem, and it really irks me that many software developers act as if they are exempt from this conventional marketplace morality.

And so to unwrap that principal in this specific instance...

Suppose an *improvement* in Live from version 6 to 7 upgrade (as a product) brings about a *fix* to a known issue / "fault" with Sampler. This means that Sampler was sold as an add-on to Live 6, but Live 6 was not capable of hosting it properly (because it needed an improvement in order for the fault in Sampler to be addressed). So in that sense, surely Sampler as an add-on to Live 6 was mis-sold?

Certainly this is a dilema for Ableton, but it is a dilema of their own making. The coding issues are their problem, not the customers. The customer wants (and surely has a right) the product they bought to work properly, period.

NOTE: This is hypethetical, because I do not know whether it is an improvement to Live 7 that has solved the bug in Sampler, or whether it is seperate. But as an illustration I hope you see my point anyway

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:01 pm

headquest wrote:I'll join the devil's advocate debate

I think that an improvement or addition to a product counts as an upgrade which it is fair game to charge for. A bug-fix, however, is essentially mending something that was broken in the product already paid for.

In any other product category it would be regarded as the manufacturer's responsibility to mend the poroblem, and it really irks me that many software developers act as if they are exempt from this conventional marketplace morality.

And so to unwrap that principal in this specific instance...

Suppose an *improvement* in Live from version 6 to 7 upgrade (as a product) brings about a *fix* to a known issue / "fault" with Sampler. This means that Sampler was sold as an add-on to Live 6, but Live 6 was not capable of hosting it properly (because it needed an improvement in order for the fault in Sampler to be addressed).

Certainly this is a dilema for Ableton, but it is a dilema of their own making. The coding issues are their problem, not the customers. The customer wants (and surely has a right) the product they bought to work properly, period.

So in that sense, surely Sampler as an add-on to Live 6 was mis-sold?

NOTE: This is hypethetical, because I do not know whether it is an improvement to Live 7 that has solved the bug in Sampler, or whether it is seperate. But as an illustration I hope you see my point anyway

thing is, as Amo pointed out many of these things are far more complex than they would appear on the surface

sometimes fixing one problem may come as part of a much bigger overhaul

in an ideal world, yes sampler should be standalone - but the plus side to that is that you dont actually have to pay for updates to sampler, they are included in Live updates - 6/half dozen

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:05 pm

I take your point forge, and I guess that this is one problem that attends when you sell two products seperately that are mutually dependant.

In my view the answer is to sell them as a single product - i.e. Live (Studio) includes Sampler, and have a single update. The case for selling Sampler as a seperate component is getting weaker, as this illustrates.