I'm still educating myself in the ways of Live [love it], but in some respects I wish they had left off the DJ'ing features. Having spun tunes the traditional way for 10yrs plus, Ableton looks [and is] an amazing tool, with vast potential for DJ's. But by adding just a crossfader, audio channel selects, and a DJ tutorial, it’s sold as a performance tool for DJ's as well as musicians. That's the tease, yes you can DJ with Live, yes you can add mad breaks into your set, yes you can mash up a crossfader, but you can't give a performance worthy of the power/functions that computers now allow for...?Or reproduce some of the functionality of the old turntables...?
Sorry people, yes it is a "DJ moaning" post. But the musicians here, may also recognise that our needs can/should only add to Live's live performance toolkit...? I think I may be right in saying that most DJ's don't dare moan,or express their needs because of the fierce competition, "there is always another guy in the cue[hah] who will take your place quietly" type mentality...?
I feel like I am putting myself in line for some serious flaming here, its only because I love Live and desperately want to DJ with it that I would bother spending my spare time writing this, be kind...? IMHO if Ableton wish to sell Live with this DJ tag, they need to do some detailed research into the black art and have some heavy brain-storming sessions. Trying not to sound "big-headed" but the only way you really can know what DJ needs is to be one. To me there is no point in using a computer, which takes some the skills involved away, unless it can really add to the performance in other areas...? A key difference between a musician and DJ is obviously the DJ spends all/most of his time practicing his/her performance, as compared to a musician who [most likely] spends most of their time creating their music. Combined with the fact that there are more bars, clubs etc available to DJ’s than venues for musicians, if I were Ableton, [and if the Live as a performance tool/DJ tool is still a key strategy] then I would listen to what they say...? They [hopefully] have the experience...? Have Ableton just slapped the crossfader into Live as a business strategy, to capture a larger market...?
Well if they are serious about meeting DJ’ing needs, below is a brief observation of DJ tools, [by no means complete] some of which Live can do already, most of which it needs to do...?
FIRST STAGE - DJ software needs all the basic features of a turntable
1 - INSTANT CUE WITHIN A SONG/CLIP - just pick the needle up***
2 - SCRATCHING - possible with a rollerball mouse***
3 - BRAKE AND "SLOW" START - the matrix sound, cheesie in the wrong hands
4 - SONG/AUDIO CAN DICTATE BPM - move from 120bpm house to 95bpm Hip Hop in one fader jump***
SECOND STAGE - DJ software needs all the basic features of a CD deck [plus the above]
1 - INSTANT LOOPING - in realtime***
2 - SAMPLER - stored samples loops, fired at will***
3 - TEMPO SHIFT WITHOUT EFFECTING PITCH
4 - EFFECTS - often bad
THIRD STAGE - DJ software taking advantage of the a computer's potential [plus the above]
1 - INSTANT/REALTIME LOOPING - able to adjust the length/position in realtime and store***
2 - INSTANT/REALTIME CUE JUMP - able to jump in realtime and store***
3 - SONG/AUDIO CONTROLS BMP - cut back & forth between 95bmp & 120bmp songs [tempo changes], stays in sync***
4 - QUANTISE BAD DRUM TEMPOS - also useful to beat quantise a section, but repitch the whole***
5 - EFFECTS - with realtime functions, in sync, plus ability to store
6 - EASY STORAGE AND NAVIGATION OF SONGS/AUDIO - including data such as original bmp, etc***
7 - REWIRE ETC - connect to other audio devices/software
*** I consider essential...
As stated earlier Ableton can do quite a few of the above but seems to lack key performance functions for a DJ...? At present DJ'ing with 500 plus tunes [to choose from] it is quite painful to set up in Live, all too easy to say "sod it, less stress, just slap some vinyl down on a platter?" The set-up and performance process does not appear to be as flexible or efficient as it could be, becoming very pre-planned...? It seems that a lot of digital DJ's use Live with Final Scratch, [suggests Live lacks the all the necessary functions?]
A CHALLENGE..?
If anyone has a copy of this old rare-groove record "24 Carat Black - 24Carat Black" it may enlighten some people to certain problems [and solutions] DJ's have. Playing like turntables in pitch mode, with changing bmp from 116 to 123 and drifting drum patterns, the objective is to quantise few bars for mixing, but play the main tune normally [let it drift] and then return to a tempo that's in-sync with Live...? [So far I'm stuck on the last sync bit]
I can't help myself, keep loading up Live instead of Traktor....
Ableton, it's just a big tease for DJ's...?
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bensuthers
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when it comes to DJing Live is cool if you ad it additionally.
if you just want to fade 2 tracks together, traktor or finals scratch is the better choice. but if you want to to DJ sets in different ways live rocks.
1. instant remixing:
1 Turntable 1 Laptop
play a record and route the output into live
sample parts on the fly and use them instantly as loops
add some other own loops
take off the record and put another on and mix it (traditionally)
then start again....this is serious fun
2. 3rd buddy DJing
2 turntables , one laptop
just mix your records traditionally and add tracks or phrases from live additionally. also route the output from the turntables into live an use live effects ontop the tracks. add loops
DJing with Live is cool if you widen the focus
Its not cool if you just set the warp markers and fade 2 tracks
if you just want to fade 2 tracks together, traktor or finals scratch is the better choice. but if you want to to DJ sets in different ways live rocks.
1. instant remixing:
1 Turntable 1 Laptop
play a record and route the output into live
sample parts on the fly and use them instantly as loops
add some other own loops
take off the record and put another on and mix it (traditionally)
then start again....this is serious fun
2. 3rd buddy DJing
2 turntables , one laptop
just mix your records traditionally and add tracks or phrases from live additionally. also route the output from the turntables into live an use live effects ontop the tracks. add loops
DJing with Live is cool if you widen the focus
Its not cool if you just set the warp markers and fade 2 tracks
It would be cool if we could do something with the scratch-amp from final scratch. But i doubt any other software developers can use the technology now Native Instruments is in charge of it.
I know i can always use it seperatly from live or route it through the effects, but it would be cool for it to be a controller on it's own.
Maybe NI could come up with something that would alow a FS-record to be a midi clock. Thogether with a scrubbing function in Live.....
There may be hundreds of different ways you can DJ.
In this case it's not out with the old, in with the new.
These days anything is possible.......
It all depends on the fact of the willingness of people to buy an unexisting product.
Money talks sadly.
It's not always like that though, buying Live made me feel good. Most of the other stuff is collecting dust.
H
I know i can always use it seperatly from live or route it through the effects, but it would be cool for it to be a controller on it's own.
Maybe NI could come up with something that would alow a FS-record to be a midi clock. Thogether with a scrubbing function in Live.....
There may be hundreds of different ways you can DJ.
In this case it's not out with the old, in with the new.
These days anything is possible.......
It all depends on the fact of the willingness of people to buy an unexisting product.
Money talks sadly.
It's not always like that though, buying Live made me feel good. Most of the other stuff is collecting dust.
H
I'm in line with the responses as well.
If you want to DJ normally, then use a normal DJ tool.
If you want to create something new, and think outside the box, use Live
Maybe ask NI to make Traktor a rewire client, then you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm completely serious about that. It would make sense. All you'd need to do is route two channels of audio into Live.
I'm working on a live set where we route my friends decks into my laptop, so he essentally runs a normal djaying set, on two of my tracks, where I can add effects or whatever, then I also have my own ability to trigger pre-made samples, play synths, sample live audience reaction and incorporate that into the set all in real time.
This is the kind of cool stuff I'd imagine people using Live for, as opposed to wanting it to replicate functionality that exists in other products.
However, I don't disagree that some extra djaying features wouldn't be recommended.
Keep pushing on Ableton tho, I'm sure they're happy to read/hear about functionality us users would like
If you want to DJ normally, then use a normal DJ tool.
If you want to create something new, and think outside the box, use Live
Maybe ask NI to make Traktor a rewire client, then you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm completely serious about that. It would make sense. All you'd need to do is route two channels of audio into Live.
I'm working on a live set where we route my friends decks into my laptop, so he essentally runs a normal djaying set, on two of my tracks, where I can add effects or whatever, then I also have my own ability to trigger pre-made samples, play synths, sample live audience reaction and incorporate that into the set all in real time.
This is the kind of cool stuff I'd imagine people using Live for, as opposed to wanting it to replicate functionality that exists in other products.
However, I don't disagree that some extra djaying features wouldn't be recommended.
Keep pushing on Ableton tho, I'm sure they're happy to read/hear about functionality us users would like
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Sorry bensuthers but have you played out mate...? You would know Ableton only scatches the surface of DJ'ing on a computer. Your comment suggests you are still in the box...? Granted you can explore other audio material in the mix but the leaves giant holes in PERFORMING, not planning, not just firing a loop, but re-cycling a loop, cutting a fader between different tempos, realtime/instant reverse, 2 beat loop filters played up a bar, everything in sync, playing Ableton like instrument, not a loop player...?deary me.
think outside the box.
you have all new ways of doing things now.
A musicans performance tends to be very different, mostly song contruction, DJ's tend to be song deconstruction....?
I haven't tried it, but I reckon a combination of Traktor and Intakt could out perform Live, its not better software, just better at performing...?
Sorry, all fired up now...
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bensuthers
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> re-cycling a loop, cutting a fader between different tempos, realtime/
> instant reverse, 2 beat loop filters played up a bar, everything in sync,
> playing Ableton like instrument, not a loop player...?
but it does all these. I don't understand which of these you are having trouble doing with Ableton.
...and your thing with the old track? synced at the start, synced at the end, let it slide in the middle? it's easy to achieve. you just have to know how to where to put the warp markers.
you're the ideas. ableton's just the conduit.
> instant reverse, 2 beat loop filters played up a bar, everything in sync,
> playing Ableton like instrument, not a loop player...?
but it does all these. I don't understand which of these you are having trouble doing with Ableton.
...and your thing with the old track? synced at the start, synced at the end, let it slide in the middle? it's easy to achieve. you just have to know how to where to put the warp markers.
you're the ideas. ableton's just the conduit.
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robbmasters
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I don't mean to pick on StompyJ, but I think this misses the point.StompyJ wrote:If you want to DJ normally, then use a normal DJ tool.
If you want to create something new, and think outside the box, use Live
I want to DJ with Live precisely so that I can "create something new, and think outside the box". Live provides lots of great features to help me do that.
But it's still lacking what I'd consider to be some fundamental features for a live performance application (not just for DJing) - such as real time looping of audio files without the need to create separate clips in advance. After all, the more you have to do in advance, the less, er, live it is - and isn't that supposed to be what it's all about?
Anyway, most of the things 2kilo suggests would benefit all Live users, not just DJs. In fact, I wonder if more people would have agreed with him if he hadn't admitted to being a DJ.
OS X, Live 9, Microbook II
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nah mate, in REALTIME, on the fly, instantly when playing...? Not copied to another clip, ie NOT PLANNED etc....
Sorry, promise no more caps [calm]. The best way to explain is to look at the function a crossfader performs, it instantly changes the audio source. Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position. You can actually start to play the controls, parameters and settings within Live, not be stuck to planning ahead with only a few options available...
Ah the track challenge, the problem comes if you want freedom to mix out anytime. With the main track drifting, you use trigger set to "none" so you can fire the next clip in the correct place, but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar, the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing it wrong...?]
Sorry, promise no more caps [calm]. The best way to explain is to look at the function a crossfader performs, it instantly changes the audio source. Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position. You can actually start to play the controls, parameters and settings within Live, not be stuck to planning ahead with only a few options available...
Ah the track challenge, the problem comes if you want freedom to mix out anytime. With the main track drifting, you use trigger set to "none" so you can fire the next clip in the correct place, but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar, the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing it wrong...?]
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bensuthers
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> REALTIME, on the fly, instantly when playing.
> Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position.
I don't understand. just type in a new number into the loop start, or length. it will do it in real time. you can jump all over the audio no problems. if you don't want to type in a number, use the arrow keys.
you can do fucked up things by just grabbing the loop markers with the mouse in the middle and dragging them around the audio in real time.
> but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar,
> the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing
> it wrong...?]
so your problem is that you can't change the playback speed of a clip in realtime, so you can't nudge an incoming track into time?
just click on the last warp marker you have before the current location of the playhead, and nudge the tempo up and down.
if you want to record these functions into the arrange, make sure you have an appropriate clip update rate set in the preferences.
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(but I don't think that there's anything limiting about option-draggin a clip to the next position, changing the settings and pressing play)
> Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position.
I don't understand. just type in a new number into the loop start, or length. it will do it in real time. you can jump all over the audio no problems. if you don't want to type in a number, use the arrow keys.
you can do fucked up things by just grabbing the loop markers with the mouse in the middle and dragging them around the audio in real time.
> but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar,
> the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing
> it wrong...?]
so your problem is that you can't change the playback speed of a clip in realtime, so you can't nudge an incoming track into time?
just click on the last warp marker you have before the current location of the playhead, and nudge the tempo up and down.
if you want to record these functions into the arrange, make sure you have an appropriate clip update rate set in the preferences.
----------
(but I don't think that there's anything limiting about option-draggin a clip to the next position, changing the settings and pressing play)
Last edited by bensuthers on Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I see the point, and I do agree with what he's saying to a certain extent.
Its just tiring to see this kind of post over and over and over and over.
I'm all for helpful suggestions in improving a products intended functionality, but sometimes I think individual users try and morph products into other products. If Live was solely a dj tool, it wouldn't be that good, if live was solely a sequencer it wouldn't be that good.
However, for a product with a synthesis of dj aspects, live performance aspects, and sequencing aspects, its completely unmatched.
Overall tho, 2kilo took a very constructive and classy approach to explaining what he wants and why he wants it. So this post isn't actually directed at him, I'm just saying in general
Its just tiring to see this kind of post over and over and over and over.
I'm all for helpful suggestions in improving a products intended functionality, but sometimes I think individual users try and morph products into other products. If Live was solely a dj tool, it wouldn't be that good, if live was solely a sequencer it wouldn't be that good.
However, for a product with a synthesis of dj aspects, live performance aspects, and sequencing aspects, its completely unmatched.
Overall tho, 2kilo took a very constructive and classy approach to explaining what he wants and why he wants it. So this post isn't actually directed at him, I'm just saying in general
no longer needed. this is for you. you know who you are.
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bensuthers
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- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:51 am
> REALTIME, on the fly, instantly when playing.
> Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position.
I don't understand. just type in a new number into the loop start, or length. it will do it in real time. you can jump all over the audio no problems. if you don't want to type in a number, use the arrow keys.
you can do fucked up things by just grabbing the loop markers with the mouse in the middle and dragging them around the audio in real time.
> but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar,
> the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing
> it wrong...?]
so your problem is that you can't change the playback speed of a clip in realtime, so you can't nudge an incoming track into time?
just click on the last warp marker you have before the current location of the playhead, and nudge the tempo up and down.
if you want to record these functions into the arrange, make sure you have an appropriate clip update rate set in the preferences.
----------
(but I don't think that there's anything limiting about option-draggin a clip to the next position, changing the settings and pressing play)
> Now provide the same instant controls for loop on/off/length/position.
I don't understand. just type in a new number into the loop start, or length. it will do it in real time. you can jump all over the audio no problems. if you don't want to type in a number, use the arrow keys.
you can do fucked up things by just grabbing the loop markers with the mouse in the middle and dragging them around the audio in real time.
> but because firing the clip cannot reset Live to the first beat of a bar,
> the new clip is out of sync with Ableton... [any solutions...? am I doing
> it wrong...?]
so your problem is that you can't change the playback speed of a clip in realtime, so you can't nudge an incoming track into time?
just click on the last warp marker you have before the current location of the playhead, and nudge the tempo up and down.
if you want to record these functions into the arrange, make sure you have an appropriate clip update rate set in the preferences.
----------
(but I don't think that there's anything limiting about option-draggin a clip to the next position, changing the settings and pressing play)
we're at it again StompJ
Live maybe outside the box for musicans used to performing with linear cubase type software, but is performance restrictive for digital DJ's...
My original point was, why did Ableton bother teasing DJ's with a crossfader...?
Live forces mixing in a style that is more "normal" and preplanned than most DJ tools...If you want to DJ normally, then use a normal DJ tool.
If you want to create something new, and think outside the box, use Live
Live maybe outside the box for musicans used to performing with linear cubase type software, but is performance restrictive for digital DJ's...
My original point was, why did Ableton bother teasing DJ's with a crossfader...?
I agree with a number of your points. I remember on your previous thread I really dug your ideas about beatjuggling and whatnot.
All I'm saying is that its probably not realistic to think that Live is ever going to rival Traktor as a traditional DJ tool, cause Live isn't a djaying application. Just as Live is probably never going to rival Sonar/Logic/Cubase as sequencing apps.
All I'm saying is that its probably not realistic to think that Live is ever going to rival Traktor as a traditional DJ tool, cause Live isn't a djaying application. Just as Live is probably never going to rival Sonar/Logic/Cubase as sequencing apps.
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