I've gotta sound off on the whole Live - MAC vs. PC thing...

[RCUS]

I just bought a Lenovo Thinkpad T400. It was a difficult decision. Not difficult to figure out, just difficult to get through all the hype that surrounds Macs when it comes to running DAWs and keeping a stable system. I read countless reviews, spoke with a ton of Ableton users, and checked the performance posts. I would guestimate that 60 to 70% percent of people I polled all said to "buy a Mac". Unfortunately / fortunately my wallet steered me toward the T400 and I couldn't be happier.

Perhaps in the coming months I will change my mind and say all the "Mac guys" were right, but so far all I see is contradiction and hype surrounding this topic. All I hear is Macs "just work....right out of the box". If that's the case, then where are the results, because I don't see them? I spent three hours customizing my system with a Live specific hardware profile that will give me solid performance going forward, for a grand total of $1218 shipped, including tax. The MBP alternative with the same specs was going to run me about $2299. An extra $1000 for a baseless guarantee that it will "just work....right out of the box" was not good enough for me.

Below are the performance tests I ran using the Asio4All drivers. I have an Echo Indigo DJx on it's way and I will do the test again once I have a proper soundcard.

I am also listing the specs of a Mac Pro that got the same performance that I did for comparison.

All I can say, is that for anyone searching the message boards for the answer of "what should I buy?...I say do your research, weigh the pros and cons, and make your decisions based on facts. The hype machine seems to be in full swing, and while I do love my iphone, when it comes to OS's and desktops/laptops you really do need to look at what you will be using it for, and buy accordingly. This is not a question of Mac vs. PC. It is a question of each persons specific situation.

Lastly, for those of you ready to beat up and piss on my new Thinkpad, that's totally cool because it's got a rollcage and a drainage system, so my set will keep playing long after I've pissed on your MBP. I know, that was a little over the top, but i think it's a proper answer to the smugness that seems to surround the "Mac guys".


for those of you that don't know there is a Live Performance test result thread going on here:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111880


and my Performance Test Results:

1 ) Ableton Live CPU Meter % - 38%
2 ) Laptop/Desktop? Make/Model? - Lenovo Thinkpad T400
3 ) Operating System? - Windows XP Professional SP3
4 ) Ableton Live version? Live 8.0.4
5 ) CPU Make, Model, and Speed? - Intel Core 2 Duo T9600 @ 2.8ghz
6 ) Amount of Ram? - 4 gigs DDR3
7 ) Soundcard (and driver version if you know it)? - Asio4All v2.0
8 ) Hard Disk Drive Speed (if you know)? 7200 rpm
9 ) Number of playback tracks? 8

and for fun:

16 tracks - 65%
24 tracks - 93% (slight crackle first time i ran it, but then stabilized with no interruptions and never crackled again after that first go)



And someones Mac Pro from page 10 of the performance posts (this is a quad core system btw)

1) Ableton Live CPU Meter 38%
2) Laptop/Desktop? Make/Model? Mac Pro
3) Operating System? OS X 10.5.6
4) Ableton Live version? 8.0.4
5) CPU Make, Model, and Speed? Quad Core 2Ghz
6) Amount of Ram? 9 GB
7) Soundcard (and driver version if you know it)? Digi 003R Digi Core Audio Manager
Hard Disk Drive Speed (if you know)? 7200
9) Number of playback tracks? 8


/end self serving rant. just needed to get that off my chest.

[bodhi71]

Well, I agree that a Mac is overpriced, but I haven't had a single problem with mine, and saw a huge difference going from a toshiba with similar specs.
I had nothing but problems on windows, and found myself spending equal amounts of time trying to keep my system running as writing music.
If the Think Pad is running like a champ, then that's cool, kudos to you sir. Hopefully it serves you well.
But, with that said, if you never owned a Mac, you might not know what you're missing, if anything. For me, it just works , and has been an enjoyable expierence, which I cannot say for windows.
Maybe W7 might change my tune, but I hope this machine runs forever.

[slyoo]

RCUS, for sure, live works just fine on any pc...
I would just like to tell you my personal story with macs. And perhaps you will understand the "way of the mac" :p

I'm in music for about 20 years and in computer music for about 15.
I always had PC's. My first machine was a Pentium Pro 200 with full scsi... I had many desktops ans many laptops (including Acer, Sony, etc...)
I switched in january with a macbook (for DJing purpose) then with a macpro (used 2007 2X2.66 - main DAW). It's almost like the Quad core perfs ranks.

Pros :
- design and build quality > far away from any PC brand. Simply amazing.
- second hand market exists > you can buy cheaper or sell higher than any PC brand.
and more than everything else
- OSX : If you didn't tested it, you can't understand the mac attitude. It's simply the most powerfull, stable and simple OS I ever used.
- less programs >also means less crap... and even for the very PC needs (MP3tag and CD architect) >VMware/parallel, et voilà!

[Bleep Blop Ima Robot]

all i have to say is i used pc's my whole life and usually only for games, was a drummer in bands for about 7 years and didnt switch to production with computers not to long ago, but i bought a mac pro and i have to say ive gotten more use out of it then any pc ive used. I still like pc's for games tho...but music i had to go mac

[IP]

pc all the way!!! haha!!

no im not a pc junkie!!

[8O]

and more than everything else
- OSX : If you didn't tested it, you can't understand the mac attitude. It's simply the most powerfull, stable and simple OS I ever used.

This.

I agree 100% you can get a better performing machine - in terms of Live CPU usage - for a much lower price if you buy a PC. The figures in the performance thread speak for themselves. But for most people, this isn't the only criterion for choosing a machine. Personally, OS X is the overriding decisive factor - the price/performance factor would have to get a whole lot worse before you'd get me moving back to Windows...

[Emissary]

yeah but you wont look as cool though

/thread

[yoshitosser]

A smug cunt is a smug cunt, the particular brand of computer s/he might use is irrelevant.

[SubFunk]

and more than everything else
- OSX : If you didn't tested it, you can't understand the mac attitude. It's simply the most powerfull, stable and simple OS I ever used.

This.

I agree 100% you can get a better performing machine - in terms of Live CPU usage - for a much lower price if you buy a PC. The figures in the performance thread speak for themselves. But for most people, this isn't the only criterion for choosing a machine. Personally, OS X is the overriding decisive factor - the price/performance factor would have to get a whole lot worse before you'd get me moving back to Windows...

+1 !!!

and on top of it, because of OSX, it's a myth that a mac is more expensive... the money you spend buying it, you save tweaking, maintaining and troubleshooting, restarting, driver installing, learning how to optimize your windows system for audio... etc, etc, something most people never think of... but if you like me use a computer for work, every lost minute becomes very, very expensive... to a point where a PC based system (we got plenty PC based audio systems at work, because of a moron boss, who doesn't understand this fact, so i know what i am talking about) costs you way more money... trust me on that. it's a housewife calculation to think a mac costs more because of the initial investment price...

[aburgener]

Pros :
- second hand market exists > you can buy cheaper or sell higher than any PC brand.
and more than everything else
- less programs >also means less crap... and even for the very PC needs (MP3tag and CD architect) >VMware/parallel, et voilà!

i love macs too, but don't agree with either of these.

1. have you ever put your mac up on eBay? while spending the fat wad of cash on such a machine, the thought that one day you can make some of that back should you decide to resell may be very comforting - but it's not realistic. you might get more resale value than a PC, yes - but not enough to brag about. it's still tough out there for a second-hand mac seller. i speak from recent experience.
2. if you wipe your pc clean as soon as you get it, or build one yourself - pre-loaded software is a non-issue.

[SubFunk]

Pros :
- second hand market exists > you can buy cheaper or sell higher than any PC brand.
and more than everything else
- less programs >also means less crap... and even for the very PC needs (MP3tag and CD architect) >VMware/parallel, et voilà!

i love macs too, but don't agree with either of these.

1. have you ever put your mac up on eBay? while spending the fat wad of cash on such a machine, the thought that one day you can make some of that back should you decide to resell may be very comforting - but it's not realistic. you might get more resale value than a PC, yes - but not enough to brag about. it's still tough out there for a second-hand mac seller. i speak from recent experience.
2. if you wipe your pc clean as soon as you get it, or build one yourself - pre-loaded software is a non-issue.

hmmm, i call selling a 8 year old G4 (7 years he served faithfully for music and 1 year in my girlfriends office) for 150 euros... plus the monitor for 100 euros... not good???, show me an 8 year old PC actually still good for anything... probably he want not even be able to run word on it...

a friend of mine just sold a G4 laptop (absolute mint condition!) here in berlin for 500 euros...

[interpolate]

I don't think any mac user is going to sit here and try to convince you that you can't get better hardware or even performance on a PC.

However I'm sure you will see a running trend about the overall lack of headaches you will encounter over the years.

You might also get a few comments about how things like IAC and core audio make chaining together apps and hardware a bit easier then a PC.

[SubFunk]

I don't think any mac user is going to sit here and try to convince you that you can't get better hardware or even performance on a PC.

However I'm sure you will see a running trend about the overall lack of headaches you will encounter over the years.

You might also get a few comments about how things like IAC and core audio make chaining together apps and hardware a bit easier then a PC.

that's it, as i said, we use PCs at work (audio rental & [little] development and production company) and they do work, but require way more energy and time to get them to the stage of a good performance and require all over more work and time to maintain them over a long period of time... and therefor costing actually more money in the end.

[polyslax]

Sounds like somebody needs a shot of kool-aid!

Nah, it's all good RCUS, enjoy your think pad, I like my mac, we're all happy.

[Heiko]

Just make sure you're Happy