"cohesive" sound....or how to not sound amatuer

[anachroschism]

APC user putting together a mix and working on some original productions and remixes and im running into some problems. All my fault, ive bought 8 suite right when it came out and have been doing way more research/learning/tute vid watching then actual messing around with it so i havent quite got the hang of everything yet.

My stuff sounds flat, simple, and i cant nail down how to beef it up. Im just adding drumracks and some efx to chopped loops of songs for a basic remix, but it sounds like the stuff I did in frootyloops back in high school. Im properly(kinda) EQ'ing the elements and giving the kick room to breathe, compressing the snare, stuff like that but still....flat.

Reverb? should I have some chain of verb/compressor/whatever on the master channel instead of each track?

Im also staying purely in 8, it can do everything anyways, but should I look into some other VSTs as ive heard "meh" things about Lives reverb? Camel space and Camel Phat caught my attention and have gotten good reviews.


Thanks, this forum is the best.

[Kent_in_CO]

How about a reverb on a return, rather than on a track-by-track basis? That would work well for drums, for example, giving them a cohesive, common ambience, and you can dial in each part to just the right amount. Another idea is to slap a Guitar Rig VST (it's got a good demo you can download) on a return...you can get some cool textural sounds that "glue" everything together.

CamelSpace and CamelPhat are good on individual tracks, but I don't know how useful they'd be in creating a more professional/cohesive sound. But still, check them out; good stuff.

[anachroschism]

thanks that helps. Ive got a 2 return tracks 1 unused that has a delay chain put together by Tom Cosm and 1 reverb return that ive been using a bit. I prob dont use that return enough, see how it sounds.

Are there some proper settings for the reverb that i should use, I have them post and send dials no more then half on each track.

[Kent_in_CO]

The one verb setting you definitely want on a return track is to set your wet/dry to 100% - otherwise you're going to have part of your original signal boosted, rather than effected. (This also applies to other effects with a wet/dry, like delay).

Try experimenting with predelay, decay time, and size, and also be sure to throw a high-pass EQ on the track, eliminating bass frequencies from your return channel. This will prevent the mix from getting muddied up.

As you dial in the amount on the sends, use your ears. For example, let's say you're doing a reverb for your snare, hats, and percussion. Solo those tracks, and dial them in one-by-one, envisioning them in a studio or room. The goal is to give them some of that live ambience and space, but not so much that it's a really noticeable effect (Unless that's what you're going for). It's hard to say how much you'll wind up cranking those sends, but mine usually seem to wind up between half and three-quarters.

[Angstrom]

the key to getting a non-amateur sound is not in using effects to try and 'beef' up the sound (IE layering reverb and delay), that just clouds the sound. The trick is in choosing sounds well in the first place. It's in understanding sound, how the ear hears natural sounds and what it finds horrible in natural sounds.

I find that the best possible outcome is from as few sounds as possible, each with a good amount of subtle harmonic variation on each hit / note. There should be harmonic 'interest' within the sound, nothing too overtly dramatic like resonant filtersweeps, I mean - imagine how a real kick drum subtly resonates the nearby snaredrum, and how the bass cab (of the bassist) can also resonate the kit. That sort of stuff makes the whole band sound both unified as an audiosource, but it also makes the notes and hits harmonically detailed.

Try really imagining what would happen if you played a 303 through a rig in a club, there would be resonance at certain points, the aircon ducts would vibrate horribly at another frequency, the bar glasses would shake at some other frequencies. Now, to make that whole experience work for you (as if you were really there), you would make a riff up that capitalised upon those resonances. Then, for that occasion and location, that 303 riff would be truly in resonance with its environment - it would be 'fat' in a synergistic way. Yet it would still be simple.

So, you can use effects to synthesize that unification of instrument and a 'virtual environment', but don;t be waylaid into the world of "just put some reverb on", because that's missing the point.

I think perhaps this idea may be too much for a web forum!


essentially : a few things working well together makes for powerful simplicity.

[josephjobling]

try putting in automation - on effects panning ect ect... it will help bring a flat track to life build your track up with automation making things louder/distorted with effects and back down again stuff like that

[anachroschism]

Thank you Angstrom, I know exactly what you are talking about yet I dont. Hehe I guess its one of those basic concepts thats difficult to verbalize yet when done gives an "aHA" moment. Simplicity is definetly in order for current project as I dont want to ruin the original song, just update/danceify it a bit.


Thanks for all the input, i will be trying a lot of new things tonight when I get to work on it.

[Lord Kahn]

One little trick I've been using a lot (which I read in an interview with Robert Henke) is to split the signal into middle and side channel, ie group two Utility effects in parallel and set their width to 200% and 0%, and drop one of the distortion effects on the side channel. This can add a lot of interest to the stereo image. Also try experimenting with other effects, the grain delay or frequency shifter can sound pretty cool too.

[Tarekith]

http://tarekith.com/assets/mixdowns.html

http://tarekith.com/assets/mastering.html

http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

[anachroschism]

Tarekith, you come through again with aweseomeness that saves the day. Thank you, i have some studying to do this afternoon.

So right now re-working The Specials from a decent quality file but its no aiff, so i am faced with:
1) maintaining the original character of the sound, particularly Terry's voice
2) building a new low-end that rocks a big room system but isnt muddy
3) tying them together so it doesnt sound like a bad "mash-up"


Ive had success so far this setup, but still not done. Aiming to finish this week.

subtle eq8 on main song file removing <90 or so plus tiny boost on hi-mid and hi to bring out snare and vocal
"Warm n Strong" on a return track A as a bit of saturation is good with the verb
Lo n Hi exciter on return B I got from monosylabik that i still need to mess around with a bit.
Sending equal amounts of the drum rack(still incomplete) and orginal loops



Some great advice so far, what does everyone think of my current plan for this? am I overlooking something or pulling a "noob" anywhere? Although only my ears can say if its a good job, I have a feeling im missing something vital, maybe sidechained compression.

[channelite]

Another efx to try is a Simple Delay in "3" I think that's a dotted 1/8 note technically. Play with the feedback and amount.

I made an audio rack with an auto filter, compressor and simple delay. The macros control the filter cut off, resonation, threshold, ratio, attack, release, feedback and delay amount.

Before Live, I used to use a Korg MS2000R for it's fliter and delay. Took me a while to get use to Live's efx, but now I hardly use the korg anymore.

[roadsandcars]

EQ and EFFECTS, EFFECTS, EFFECTS!

[daveashe]

EQ and compression (in this order) is really important. Dont just boost everything unless thats the effect you want, cut out the sub-bass frequencies out of your instruments, and brightness that shards your hears. put a bit of compression on each instrument, learn how the compressor effects instruments - one of the most important effects imho - use sidechaining to make one sound dance in tandem with another (ie kick and other elements of the mix), and make sure that your master output has a cut below 30hz and above around 17khz, and don't fully compress the mix without puting some of the dry signal through.

A nice room reverb on the master with a short delay time, very subtle only from about 2-10% depending on the music style.

Don't go and squash the heck out of your mix with compressors now, use them to add punch and clarity, not to muddy them up (make sure the attack/release is set corectly)

Distortion used sparingly can be great, add some warmth to a sub-bassline.

Don't overcompress the master, make sure it bounces around -6db and below, none of this -3db trash you get in the charts.

Finaly, sample sources - make sure that they are clean - dirt can add up when you go to the final master (as you are decreasing the dynamic range slightly)

Forgot one thing: Dont use too much reverb, delays are better

[oddstep]

I think perhaps this idea may be too much for a web forum!
....powerful simplicity.

S'right innit. I used to put synced delays on everything in a desperate attempt to make tracks stick together, then I had a phase of compressor overkill, now I'm focusing on using levels and pans to sculpt my sound - which I suspect is the right approach. A bad sounding track never got better just because the mid range arp line got a 3db boost at 1100hz. I guess my big idea is to sort out the spatial relationship between the lead elements and the supporting stuff. Having decent monitoring helps.... especially if you want to hear your music anywhere else... I was really surprised by how much difference speakers made to my sound... a mix that sounded totally right on my mid range home system sounded totally embarrassing on my dj friend's microPA.

The good news is that the term amateur is pretty contextual; there's plenty of amateurish music that succeeds cashwise and/or YAY!wise, and obviously loads of beautifully produced music that is fundamentally, totally, lifeless.

[anachroschism]

some great advice, thanks daveashe. Problem is source audio is not what id like it too be, working with mp3 sucks.

Adding some compression/room(basement preset?)reverb to master tonight see how it goes, im not to well versed with proper compression and settings. Having a previous track mastered let me know about the -6 thing, so im keeping headroom mos def.


Actually rethinking adding a whole drum rack, as a simple re-work sometimes is better then a bad remix. Lots of studying up on other peoples tracks on soundcloud has really helped out, an amazing Beatles rework was nothing more than longer intro, looped hook, and delay vox.

Thanks all, ill hope to have it up here for your dissection before it goes to the public. might get pushed to this weekend though:)