Compressors - Why bother emulating this old technology?

[andydes]

Compressors - Why bother emulating this old technology?

I've been reading up on effects a fair bit recently to better understand what I'm doing with live's effects (and perhaps consider getting some quality external plug ins. Something's struck me about the way compressors work.

We all know what the input/output curve (or straight lines) on a compressor looks like and how it relates to threshold, ratio and knee (as it's shown graphically on live's compressor). Unless I'm wrong, limiters, gate's, expanders, upward compressors and upward expanders are all pretty much the same deal, but with different shaped curves.

I also get the impression that the main factor that gives emulations of classic gear their character is the shape of the curve. For example, one type (I forget which) breaks down at a certain point above the threshold so the input/output returns to a linear relationship, but offset slightly, making it very good for retaining attack on drums.

So the question is, why keep the standard threshold, ratio and knee controls or try to emulate the exact response of old gear? Now we're working with digital audio, we should be able to draw any shape we like for the response curve, much like how we can draw complex envelops in some synths. Then one plugin in could be used for all our compressors, limiters, expanders, gates, etc. One plugin could recreate the sound of numerous classic bits of kit, have as much character or be as transparent as you like. You could crate a one stage compander by having two thresholds (as opposed to compressing and expanding in series), or even create weird new dynamics effects.

I understand that the shape of the attack and delay also contribute to the sound of compressers etc. So could a similar parametric curve be used here as well?

Is this a good idea? Is it feasable? Would it take ungodly amounts of processing? Has it been done? Or am I just talking out of my arse?

[fatrabbit]

I think this might exist already in a plugin suite called Nebula. However i've never tried it as it's Windows only currently (at least the stable versions if I remember rightly).

There's also another point to be made about the placebo effect of the visuals. The UAD plugins (or Waves emulations or whatever) look very good and are modelled on the actual hardware panels. I don't think it's an overexageration to say that the visuals can have an effect on people's perceptions of how good a plugin is, as the placebo effect is known to do some pretty crazy things.

[andydes]

I think this might exist already in a plugin suite called Nebula. However i've never tried it as it's Windows only currently (at least the stable versions if I remember rightly).

There's also another point to be made about the placebo effect of the visuals. The UAD plugins (or Waves emulations or whatever) look very good and are modelled on the actual hardware panels. I don't think it's an overexageration to say that the visuals can have an effect on people's perceptions of how good a plugin is, as the placebo effect is known to do some pretty crazy things.

That looks interesting. Kind of similar to what I meant, but in a way the complete opposite philosophy.

From having a quick look at the site, the nebula seems to be able to recreate the characteristics of various types of specific hardware. Which is one part of what I meant.

But I was more thinking about just ditching the limitations and differences between all the dynamics processors, and replace them with one simple, graphic interface so you could either use them as direct replacements of old gear or go beyond what you can do with hardware.

Being restricted to one threshold, one ratio, etc at a time seems redundant in digital audio. The input/output response of a dynamics processor should be able to have as many slopes, curves and kinks as we like now.

Most of the basic effects we use now still tend to be based on vintage equipment. Surely it's time to think about why these effects were designed a certain way in hardware, what's good about that system and what can be chucked out in favour of new ways of achieving what we want.

I was thinking about the same placebo effect after reading another topic on here. You could well be right. Generally, I'm against the idea of knobs and dials if there's another way of controlling the parameter which makes more sense, especially if said knob has fake chrome effect on it. For example, Why have faders to control envelopes or filter cutoff and resonance when it can be shown graphically. Live has always been pretty good about this.

However, I've just bought u-he's ACE, which goes against everything I've just said about emulating hardware processes and interfaces. But it does sound great and the interface is clear and straight forward. Or maybe I just think it sounds great when I'm looking at all those patch leads. Hmmmm…

[davepermen]

+1

and then, combine all the different delay effects we have now into one bigger one.

then we reduced the amount of effectsin live massively.

[Moody]

There are certain characteristics that circuit modeling provides. That is what people who seek out these types of effects are paying for. This done properly takes a heap of time for the developers and so they usually try to regain something from those efforts monetarily. Do I care? Nope, I exclusively use lives compressors and other components in combinations that I find fitting, but that does not mean they may not be useful to someone else who wants to record vocals or something through a certain type of processor. (Maybe you missed that during your research?)

In the end, use what sounds good to you.

Have a good one!

[liveISlife]

especially if said knob has fake chrome effect on it.

That's the only way I get that "pro" "pumping" "feeling" is when the knobs have a fake chrome effect on them.

[Hidden Driveways]

If you think that people are all just seduced by the GUI of software compressors, you're missing the script. Audio people do have a softspot for blinky lights and over-sized knobs, but generally the pro audio market is not filled with products that are all smoke and mirrors. Products become popular and command a certain price for a reason. The reasons are that they either sound great and/or make things easier to do.

I think Albeton did what you're suggesting (to an extent) when they consolidated Compressor I and Compressor II into just Compressor a couple of versions back. It was a smart move that really simplified the user experience. However, there was no Limiter preset, and a separate Limiter effect didn't arrive until Version 8. I use a Limiter called Limi that was a part of the now discontinued Pluggo bundle from Cycling 74. Even though Limi is a lot uglier looking than Ableton's Limiter, I still use Limi every time. I'll often audition Limiter, but after I try it out against Limi I go with Limi every time because I like the sound better. Why this is, I can't exactly say, but it has nothing to do with the GUI.

[djsynchro]

you should go onto UA's website http://www.uaudio.com they make the 2 most famous compressors in the world (LA2A and 1176LN) and they do plug-ins of vintage gear. They hae a webzine with tons and tons of articles why certain compressors sound the way they do et. Really good stuff.

[andydes]

Cheers for the replies guys. Just to clarify a bit, the look of the gui is a bit of a side issue. I may have been confusing my main point.

Really, I'm asking why so many effects have exactly the same limitations as their hardware equivalents. The example of compressors and the like struck me since every one I have seen has the same basic input/output characteristic (ie. a 1:1 ratio up to the threshold, a variable curve on the knee and a slope between horizontal and 1:1 above the threshold). Expanders have the same limitations, but the ratio affects the response below the threshold. Why not be able to have 4 thresholds at different points, linked with splines instead of straight lines? Or whatever else you fancy.

Granted I may have simplified the principal of circuit modeling, and there's probably a lot more to recreating the sound of vintage gear than just the input / output response, but I'm led to believe it is still the major contributing factor. So by having full control of the shape of this response, you should be able to create whatever characteristics you like. It might not sound quite like your favorite vintage classic, but if you had a much higher level of control, maybe it really wouldn't matter so much.

Only something I've been considering the last couple of days, perhaps I'm totally wrong.

[Plague1715]

I'm sure someone could build an "Ultimate Modular Compressor" in Reaktor or Max, but that would take some serious time and skill.

[djsynchro]

It is way more complicated than you think. For starters there are 4 types: Opto, FET, VCA and diode bridge they all have their peculiarities. Electro Harmonix makes an opto compressor where you get to choose from LED, luminescent panel (like in the LA2A) and incandescent lamp, to shine on the opto gain reduction element. They all have different charateristics and frequency dependencies. It's complicated, and modelling a good sounding vintage piece of kit is all the rage. In many ways digital is already better than analogue, more stable, automatabl, reproducable. The digital version of the Fatso compressor/saturator/dynamic high frequency limiter ("warmth" circuit) by UA includes a version where you get to set treshold levels for the transformer distortion etc things that can't be done on the hardware.

[andydes]

Maybe you should start reading some books on C++

I'm not that sold on the idea. Although if anyone else fancies having a go, we can discuss my royalties later.

[Grappadura]

There are some compressors out there that have expanded on the original idea. There is this:

http://www.gersic.com/audio.php?id=27

and two compressors come to my mind that have 2 thresholds instead of just one, red phatt : http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/
and the one from blue cat audio.

[andydes]

There are some compressors out there that have expanded on the original idea. There is this:

http://www.gersic.com/audio.php?id=27

and two compressors come to my mind that have 2 thresholds instead of just one, red phatt : http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/
and the one from blue cat audio.

Blue Cat's Dynamics is a complete dynamics effect processor: it can be used as a compressor, limiter, gate, expander or even waveshaper for distortion. You can manage the dynamics response of the plug-in with a unique two-thresholds system. The plug-in includes an input filter as well as a side chain filter, in order to control the frequencies affected by the compression. Its continuous VCA/Opto and Peak/RMS controls let you smoothly and precisely choose the behavior of the envelope detection like you have never been able to.

Now that's more like what I'm talking about. Thanks.

[posssu]

This is probably also somewhat to that direction: http://www.rndigital.net/dynamizer.html