Petition.. Improove Lives ability as a Live tool !!!

[3phase]

I am getting more and more problems using Live on stage..mainly because of teh stability issues of L8..which are on the way to be solved..

But there are other problems! Live can do many things pretty good but in other regards its inferior.
The lates developments of the program havent improoved Libe regarding stage usability.. The main advancements was made in getting Live closer to a DAW.. but that hasnt made the live handing better.rather worse--
longer loafding times , less overview...

I would like to ask ableton to improove Lives ability as a stage related life tool. Andtherfore the user wishes regarding that should be handled with priority rather than geeky max implementations...
I would prefer a decend live sequencer way over a ggeky programming enviroment.. i dont have the nerv to do programming on stage...

User wish NO1 clip automation is needed !!! since a long time..

MIXER scenes

controler assignments that can be loaded while the set is running..set or scene specific..

many things that would help the stage situation.. incl. better browser window one can read...


AND...

the way to get a set together with Live from many projekt files is a nightmare..

you have to render eberything down..but than ther is not much to do on stage anymore..or its an horrible amount of work..


why one cant import whle scenes? on new tracks..with all plug ins? or drag and drop between ableton instances?
that worked in older LIve versions allready..but that is history..

So actually the program is really getting worse for the giging musican...
Please Ableton stop this and turn to the better.


Clip Automation NOw.. and names for grouptrack launch handles..

and and and


please click the poll or add ideas for missing features that optimize stage work

[hoffman2k]

Max gimmicks

Its a plugin Sven. Get over it. Rewire goes deeper in Live than M4L does.
M4L has to be started up while Live is running. No M4L devices, no M4L running.

I do agree with the session automation. That one is long overdue. Funnily enough its already half there because of the "gimmick" you object to. At sample refresh rates. Remember when they said this would require a rewrite? That was a long time ago.

Half the performance tools you wish and the other half you haven't even thought off can be achieved with M4L. I won't argue with you about wetter it should be Live native or not. Off course everything should be built into Live. But the reality is that its impossible to grant every single wish. M4L granted many of my wishes. Maybe a runtime will grant yours.

Here's an example of a very useful (for me and some others) performance device that Ableton would never build into Live: http://www.thecovertoperators.org/Max/M ... lip-mapper

Bring up the point a million times if you wish. M4L is a plugin like Analog and Operator are plugins. Its a wrapped plugin, like many VST's and AU's.
Just because Max for Live exists, that doesn't mean we don't NEED session automation, a browser that doesn't suck and can be remotely controlled, a tight sequencer, proper MIDI export, unfiltered MIDI, Surround sound, etc..
In fact, we NEED it even more now.
You're objecting to M4L for all the wrong reasons.

- Bjorn

[davepermen]

the way to get a set together with Live from many projekt files is a nightmare..

you have to render eberything down..but than ther is not much to do on stage anymore..or its an horrible amount of work..

i don't render everything down i just drag'n'drop the stuff from the live browser. just as an idea. it's still clumsy, but at least allows to still twist the knobs on the synths and all.

+1 for the rest. got stated before times and times, but anyways, would be nice to have one day..

[8O]

I see Max as the single largest recent improvement in Live's ability as a live tool, notwithstanding the quality statement.

Agree with some of your comments, but disagree with your poll title.

[anybody human]

Why one or the other. I doubt Logic is thinking that way with Mainstage.

[Poster]

So actually the program is really getting worse for the giging musican...

worse?.. since which version?..
you can still open Live 1 sets and perform the way you could with Live 1..
do a performance with Live 1 and let us know how great Live 8 actually is..

I'll only give you Session automation, that needs to be fixed..

[swishniak]

improve your spelling

[Coupe70]

Its a plugin Sven. Get over it. Rewire goes deeper in Live than M4L does.
M4L has to be started up while Live is running. No M4L devices, no M4L running.

I think 3phase didn't mean that M4L makes Live 8 less stable or usable
for all users, but that Ableton used development resources to work
on M4L instead on native live performance features for ALL users.
...or full OSC support so WE can choose which additonal software
we use to program our extra features...

[hoffman2k]

Its a plugin Sven. Get over it. Rewire goes deeper in Live than M4L does.
M4L has to be started up while Live is running. No M4L devices, no M4L running.

I think 3phase didn't mean that M4L makes Live 8 less stable or usable
for all users, but that Ableton used development resources to work
on M4L instead on native live performance features for ALL users.
...or full OSC support so WE can choose which additonal software
we use to program our extra features...

But honestly, how much development did go into it?
The API was already there. The ability to run external (yet seemingly built-in) devices was already there too.
M4L doesn't even come close to full OSC support because you can't access things you couldn't access with remote control surfaces, API hacks and regular MIDI control.

Why is it always M4L that is supposedly halting development? Why not Serato with the new file format which everybody conveniently forgets. Why not Akai or Novation or Avid's next controller support? Or the actual fact that all development is halted until Live works?

Its just an unfounded excuse. If Ableton actually did improve Live to house M4L, then why do we have all these limitations? All they did was enabling Live to load custom wrappers. In the past year I can only recall one change (pre-M4L) and one addition to the API stuff. Done by one guy. It probably took longer to make that APC40 pictures collage than to make those changes.

M4L is the best addition to Live for Live performance since Racks. And ironically we still can't access racks with M4L (or OSC for that matter). If you like it or not, improvements to both Max and Live will pay of for ALL Live users.
People were having problems long before 8.1. Many claim nothing has rocked since 7.0.18.
M4L isn't the cause of stability issues and I WISH Ableton would actually spend some more development resources on M4L.
All I'm hearing is the opposite of what is happening in the real world.

[Coupe70]

Why is it always M4L that is supposedly halting development? Why not Serato with the new file format which everybody conveniently forgets. Why not Akai or Novation or Avid's next controller support? Or the actual fact that all development is halted until Live works?

Of course Serato also belongs to the list of "side activities" I critisize.
In fact Serato is so far aside that I forgot about it.
I'm not sure about controller support as I see it as
a step to more live performance possibilities.

If you like it or not, improvements to both Max and Live will pay of for ALL Live users.

But not until there is a M4L runtime.
Honestly, I was willing to upgrade to Live 8 AND buy M4L when it
was announced. I did not upgrade because of all the stability issues
and I (as MAX user) did not see one single M4L patch that made me
say "Wow, I need that!"...

M4L isn't the cause of stability issues

As I said !
And 3phase talked about stability issues and then about OTHER
problems like Ableton working on M4L instead on native live
performance features. So nobody said there is a connection
between stability issues (for non-M4L users) and M4L.

But you know, in the end I don't really want to argue - I'm a
happy Live 6 user ! Was just thinking about what Ableton
could do to get some money from me again...

[hoffman2k]

If you like it or not, improvements to both Max and Live will pay of for ALL Live users.

But not until there is a M4L runtime.
Honestly, I was willing to upgrade to Live 8 AND buy M4L when it
was announced. I did not upgrade because of all the stability issues
and I (as MAX user) did not see one single M4L patch that made me
say "Wow, I need that!"...

Not true. Any changes to the API that allows Max users to do more, also applies to controller scripts being able to do more. And it works the other way around too.
Then there are things like multichannel audio and unfiltered MIDI. Something we demanded for ages and might now finally end up seeing.

The reason why you as a Max user aren't overwhelmed by M4L is because it just Max inside Live along with annoying limitations. Which pretty much makes my point about Ableton not having spent a lot of time on developing Live towards a better M4L host.

[glitchrock-buddha]

I agree that Live should stay focused on Live performance, but it should be said that Live 8 did bring some very important performance features like:
-Plug-in configuration > This is the biggest thing for me. Be able to specify which parameters are visible for isntant mapping lets you customize your controller setups better. This is awesome.
-Group Tracks > This made it easier to organize sets around a smaller number of tracks or to freeze tracks while still being able to apply effects over the track to be manipluated in real time. That's pretty huge for performance.
-Looper > I'm not into it but it's clearly aimed at performance.
-Integration with Live performance devices like the APC's and novation pad > Ie. the tight integration with the little box that follows the clip view. This may not be a huge change in the program but has made things a lot better as far as firing clips.

Those are just the ones that stand out for me.

It's certainly never been as good, but yeah, recorded clip automation is long overdue and I hope they are working on that.
Hey Hoffman, what is the M4L device you are referring to? Is it the one that assigns midi cc's to Live device parameters and records the cc's?

[hoffman2k]

Hey Hoffman, what is the M4L device you are referring to? Is it the one that assigns midi cc's to Live device parameters and records the cc's?

Not a specific device, but the one you mentioned would be an example. My Clip Mapper too.
It uses an object called live.remote~ which allows us to control almost any device parameter at audio rates. In other words, faster than MIDI Scripts to update a parameter in Live.
So session automation is half there. They still have to solve the problem about how to handle absolute versus relative envelopes, but the ability to hijack a parameter for that purpose is now there. Brought to you by Cycling 74 and Ableton. I can't wait for Live 9. Fingers crossed!

[3phase]

So actually the program is really getting worse for the giging musican...

worse?.. since which version?..
you can still open Live 1 sets and perform the way you could with Live 1..
do a performance with Live 1 and let us know how great Live 8 actually is..

I'll only give you Session automation, that needs to be fixed..

When i cant drag and drop between live instances anymore..what worked fine with L7 on my computer the process of getting a live set together from many projekt files is a nightmare..

There are clips
There are scenes
There are parts of arragemants
There are fx settings
Ther are controler assignments

you might like to bring together in one file... which actually gets allways sop gig that live gets a bit unstable..

I dont really see any attempt to deal with that situation on the side from ableton..and max for live is not helping in this structural quest in any way.. drag and drop between ableton instances would help..and actually that ability to run to instances that share theiere prefs file and where you can switch between them and load and save independently or crossfade between them...

That would be actually pretty cool.. just decide on stage to load another set...
never have to buld theese monster projekt files that combine half a years work in one session..

something like that.. of cause with intelligent controler hamdling... only the upfront instace gets the controllers..

Its defently possible to get things more comfortable for the users.. what frees time for creativity..especialy valuable direct before a gig.. i prefer to write sequences than instead importing clips..for hours.and hours and hours.

the same again any gig.. ok..thats me..sofar i never played a thing twice.. i guess i finaly have to give up on that..

[3phase]

Hey Hoffman, what is the M4L device you are referring to? Is it the one that assigns midi cc's to Live device parameters and records the cc's?

Not a specific device, but the one you mentioned would be an example. My Clip Mapper too.
It uses an object called live.remote~ which allows us to control almost any device parameter at audio rates. In other words, faster than MIDI Scripts to update a parameter in Live.
So session automation is half there. They still have to solve the problem about how to handle absolute versus relative envelopes, but the ability to hijack a parameter for that purpose is now there. Brought to you by Cycling 74 and Ableton. I can't wait for Live 9. Fingers crossed!

?? really? and this runs stable? not so long ago, a few weeks or so, L8.1 was crashing all over just without max..
and with max in the backround dealing with this deep inside clipautomation stuff its getting better?

besides... you have to pay 300 euro to get clipautomation than.. might be even worth it :-/

but sorry.. how can such a thing be stable? just have a look in the bug forums... i dont appears to be a stage option wright now.. at least not for the users that have issues with L8..

in case there are really users that have none...