hemiola/polyrhtyhm cuing

[nawenipwod]

Hi,

1st post here, this may be a n00b question and I'm sorry if so, search didn't yield anything useful for the problem I am having.

I am looking to use Ableton Live to make live PA techno that is very hemiola/polyrhythm heavy. This means I would have several MIDI clips of different lengths going at once. For example I might have a 7/8 clip, a 5/4 clip, and a 15/16 clip running at the same time...

I want to bring clips in at very specific times as my music is very precise. But I can't figure out how Ableton is determining what exact beat to start playing a clip when I use odd time signatures. I will press the button to start a new clip and basically I have no idea what exact beat the clip will start... I also find, when switching from one clip to another on the same channel, Live will play a partial version of the outgoing clip before starting the new clip -- in a pretty much unpredictable/uncontrollable way -- rather than playing out the clip and switching smoothly. I.e. it will add a beat or two or three rather than proceeding in the desired time sig an making a smooth transition, which ruins my desired effect.

So... ...how does Ableton make these timing decisions for cuing, when clips of multiple beat lengths (or time sigs) are in play? I have done a fair amount of experimentation & I cannot figure it out. Anyone have any suggestions? I have read it brings in a clip at "the next downbeat" but when multiple time sigs are involved there are multiple downbeats and Live doesn't seem to be referencing any of them...?

I may not be wording this very clearly, if anyone needs clarification on what I mean just ask. I don't use 4/4 much, but I have not noticed this problem with 4/4...

Also, I know I can get whatever precise results I want for a production arrangement, but I am specifically talking about live PA utility here, as I am currently trying to determine if I should get a MIDI controller, and it all determines on how well-equipped Live is to actually make the music I have in mind in a live setting, composing on the fly...

thx

[yur2die4]

I am curious, with these time sigs, is it common for them all to still have the same downbeat? Or in other words, they have the unique time sigs, but they all start and end each bar at the same time?

If so, it might be a case of warping your clips differently. Unfortunately, that could drastically reduce the quality of some of your clips since they are at unique signatures.

If you have any questions or extra details, I will try to help although, I'm sure there are others more qualified haha.

[chapelier fou]

I may have misunderstood, but isn't it just a matter of quantization ?
If your global quantization is set to one bar, the clips will wait for the next bar of the main clock to get launched, supposing their launch quantization is set to global.

[zeropoint]

@OP

In session view Live will launch your clip based on the launch quantize setting set globally in the transport bar or locally in the clip view. However these quantize settings will always reference the time signature of the overall project regardless of the time signature you "set" in the clips and the way you manipulate their length. If you launch a scene of clips with different time signatures, but set launch quantize locally for each, they will all obey their own individual launch settings but again those settings will always reference your global project time signature

If you want to change your base global time signature (around which your polyrhythms groove and to change where your bar divisions fall) live and on the fly with a midi pedal board say, there's probably a way to have remote control over the global time signature in session view using some max for live trickery but someone else will have to chime in about that. In this case in order to keep track of the changing downbeat you could also do with either having Live's metronome sent to a cue output and monitor it via a covert earpiece (actually off the top of my head, don't know if that's possible with Live's metronome) or having a light metronome that is brighter on the downbeat. I think the APC40 does this for example.(APC40 hackers??)

Sounds like you need to plan very carefully what your global project time signature is going to be,and then work out which clips have what launch quantize based on how accurate your physical triggering is.

Well that's my tuppence worth....probably some other fellas on here more knowledgable than me with this.......

Of course if you happen to be Debashish Battacharya then you can just switch all your clips' launch quantize to none and go party.

[chapelier fou]

@zeropoint :
you did the long story !

[zeropoint]

yep....i didn't have time to do the short one...

[opuswerk]

wouldn't that all work out if you used the legato function for all clips? so that their start position is always relative to a "main" timeline?

[pepezabala]

you can switch global quantiztion easily on the fly by using shortcuts on the keyboard. You can also set a quantization value individually for each clip.

Then it needs some practice, especially with odd signatures!

[nawenipwod]

OK thanks, I was not previously aware of the global time sig (n00b like I said.) This helps me to at least start working towards some order...

@OP

In session view Live will launch your clip based on the launch quantize setting set globally in the transport bar or locally in the clip view. However these quantize settings will always reference the time signature of the overall project regardless of the time signature you "set" in the clips and the way you manipulate their length. If you launch a scene of clips with different time signatures, but set launch quantize locally for each, they will all obey their own individual launch settings but again those settings will always reference your global project time signature

If you want to change your base global time signature (around which your polyrhythms groove and to change where your bar divisions fall) live and on the fly with a midi pedal board say, there's probably a way to have remote control over the global time signature in session view using some max for live trickery but someone else will have to chime in about that. In this case in order to keep track of the changing downbeat you could also do with either having Live's metronome sent to a cue output and monitor it via a covert earpiece (actually off the top of my head, don't know if that's possible with Live's metronome) or having a light metronome that is brighter on the downbeat. I think the APC40 does this for example.(APC40 hackers??)

Sounds like you need to plan very carefully what your global project time signature is going to be,and then work out which clips have what launch quantize based on how accurate your physical triggering is.

Well that's my tuppence worth....probably some other fellas on here more knowledgable than me with this.......

Of course if you happen to be Debashish Battacharya then you can just switch all your clips' launch quantize to none and go party.