"Phantom" reverb settings for mixing vocals?

[MarcAaron]

I'm a newbie singer, trying to put what I've learned from lessons so far into some karaoke-style recordings in Live 8. I'm having a lot of problems with reverb. What I mean by "phantom" in my subject line, is that I don't want the reverb to be really noticeable unless it was taken away.

I've been going through Live's reverb device presets (Gentle Ambience, Large Hall, Medium Concert, etc.), looking for one that would be a good starting point that I could then tweak. But I haven't found one that's close to workable, even in the high quality setting mode. They all either make it sound like I'm singing in a tin can or standing in a deep canyon.

As far as starting from scratch, Googling "reverb settings and vocals" gives me an avalanche of links, none of which really answer my questions.

I found a YouTube video of an awesome singer doing the same song I'm trying to learn, and the vocals are exactly the sound I am trying to achieve. Any thoughts on they might have set up the reverb for this recording? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlcJSp20rw

[Winterpark]

there is no magic-wand for reverb. it's going to require some tweaking depending on the track you are working with.

first, i'm assuming you're using it on a send/return, and not as an insert?...this will help, and allow you to adjust the wet/dry balance better.

secondly, you have to understand that reverb is a time based effect.... so it should really work with the tempo of your track. this is not to say that the pre-delay and decay time has to be the same tempo, but more that it sort of breathes with the tempo of the song.

thirdly, you'll need to get a sense of the depth of space you want, or how big your virtual room is.... this is done with the room size parameter.

then comes the tonality of the reverb, which can be adjusted with the high-pass/low-pass, modulation/spin and reflection/diffusion parameters.

[MarcAaron]

first, i'm assuming you're using it on a send/return, and not as an insert?...this will help, and allow you to adjust the wet/dry balance better.

Geez... tattoo the word "newbie" on my forehead. I was using the reverb as an insert... I moved it to a return and the difference was immediate -- in a good way. THANK YOU!

So now, I wonder if I understand the theory well enough to explain what I was doing wrong: as an insert, I was subjecting 100% of my vocals to the effects processing -- as an insert, the wet/dry control of the plugin really wasn't saying, for example, "let 20% of the vocals pass through unaffected and add on some reverb to the other 20%?" 'cause when I moved the reverb to a return, the first thing I noticed wasn't the reverb -- it was that I could hear my original vocal punching through clearly. That seems to be what was completely missing when I did it the wrong way, as an insert.

On a return, the reverb sounded like what I was after... a little bit of icing on the cake. As an insert the reverb was kind of like somebody burned the cake in the oven & tried to cover it up with icing, if that makes any sense

[Winterpark]

hey cool. glad it's working for you now!

The wet/dry balance on an insert means that you are blending the signal with the effect with whatever percentage you dial in... so it would be 80%dry + 20%wet

with the send/return method, the return channel's slider adds the effect in addition to what is already there... 100% dry + whatever you dial in wet.

[transology]

I'm assuming you're using it on a send/return, and not as an insert?....

I'm my experience, it's ok to use SENDs. But I prefer nowadays to bounce of the VOX track - creating a new track for VOX-RVB, and using a full wet signal there.

The major point ? Making STEAMS with independent FX like reverbs worth the world to me. If your CPU resources are limited, go for a standard SEND AUX fx thing.

My 2 cents

[leedsquietman]

Try using a delay instead of a reverb, such as a tape slap type delay (this can be achieved using Simple Delay in Live, start with a wet dry mix of around 18-25% with a delay setting of around 1/16th of a note, or between 40 and 150ms dependent on song tempo, with a feedback of around 15-20%). You can also filter out some low end with EQ etc.

Alternatively, try a shorter reverb with a predelay (something in the 20-40ms range), filter out sub 400 Hz and above 8-10Khz with EQ and with a shorter room size and decay, something in the 1-2 second range, play with reflections until you get a good result. If it's on an insert, again something in the 20-30% range max, on a send, something in the -15 to -10dB send level. Look at room or plate type reverbs as opposed to hall to start with.

Of course this is all very variable, so these settings may not work or require extensive tweaking.

[MarcAaron]

Hey guys, thanks for the great info. And I've heard about using delay instead of reverb but wasn't sure how to even begin until leedsquietman's post gave me a solid starting point. I'm going to experiment with that tonight and see how it compares to the reverb-on-return method.

It appears that there was another problem (besides the reverb on an insert) that was giving me the "singing in a tin can" sound. I've been recording in a smallish-apartment and the room has had no acoustic treatment of any kind. Just moving the mic around, hanging different materials behind it, etc., is having a noticeable effect. Of course this is painfully obvious to anyone out there with recording experience. I'm gonna plead innocent due to newbie-itis on this point, and get some proper acoustic tiles or panels in here ASAP.

[agent314]

Is there a significant difference between using a Send and using parallel chains in a rack?

Is it just the ability to control how much of the input signal is going to the send/return? Would you be able to slap a Utility in there as the first thing in the chain and get the same effect?