Propper midi implementation that allows to use external gear

mexique1 · Post by **mexique1** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:00 pm

what do you mean ?

Korhan · Post by **Korhan** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:15 pm

Regarding MIDI implementation, I have one little issue. Most synths need a little time after receiving a midi program change to actually load the preset into memory. However, with Live it is only possible to send program change messages at the start of clips, which sometimes results the first note in the clip be skipped by the synth (an Access Virus in this case). There is a workaround to this which is to playy a tiny MIDI clip containing only the program change event before the actual clip, but maybe there could be a more elegant and practical solution to this.

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:48 pm

mexique1 wrote:what do you mean ?

If you use Live 4 with external midiexpanders you have a lot of problems!

Theire is no latencie free midi recording and positioning.. i want to hear what i ve recorded at exact the same position as i played it in relation to the Audio output... When a program that aims to be a studio workstation cant do this....
Even with all event quantized midi output is not where you expect it to be... midi events are allways late.
There is no good midi thru mimik. A bit stoneage feeling like in the c-64 times. especially with a rack full of expanders no easy task to use Live without an external midipatchbay.
There is no replace recording or loop replace recording funktions.
No track delay parameter... such a thing is really important...especially on a program that handles midi with audio latencie...

enough?
All this features i see as standarts because you find them in any midisequencer since the mid 80´s.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:08 pm

yeah but it took time to implement those...

live's midi interface has been around for what..? not even 5 months?

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:23 pm

Maybe... but i dont see improovments in this area when i look at the actual betas. Therefore i formulated a feature wish..
Maybe Midi is not so important for 100% laptop artists..But for me it is.

I got rid of Logic when the midi in Live was anounced ...but this was a mistake as i see now...
Even when i wish to work only in one programm one day..
There is no software for Mac in the moment that is doing it all... And working with Live 4 stays critical for a lot of reasons...

However i will wait to the Summer..
When Live 4 is not getting in a propper stage up to than, i have to fight the dependencie i developed to this programm.

mr-e · Post by **mr-e** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:25 am

i must agree with 3phase : those midi-issues should be the first thing to be looked after in future versions of ableton

the audio-portion of ableton now has good quality , stability and enough working features

the midi-portion is however not at all at the same level yet : not quality , not stability and definitly not functionality

this is no surprise as midi is still in version 1 compared to version 4 for audio , but this should be looked at before expanding ableton with more features like the fm-synth some people are guessing about or other inovative features i'd be glad to see in future versions after midi is fixed

mexique1 · Post by **mexique1** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:36 am

ok 3phase i agree with you, i have a delay on my grooveboxes too... i can correct this by quantizing on the grooveboxes, but for some extreme drills it sucks indeed ! i also would like more than one midi clock output, this would be VERY useful !

everybody agrees to say that Live needs midi improvements, but i think it will come... i hope

ikeaboy · Post by **ikeaboy** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:30 pm

Korhan wrote:Regarding MIDI implementation, I have one little issue. Most synths need a little time after receiving a midi program change to actually load the preset into memory. However, with Live it is only possible to send program change messages at the start of clips, which sometimes results the first note in the clip be skipped by the synth (an Access Virus in this case). There is a workaround to this which is to playy a tiny MIDI clip containing only the program change event before the actual clip, but maybe there could be a more elegant and practical solution to this.

This problem isn't exclusive to live, I also use an Access Virus and I used to sequence with an MPC2000XL and I always had to place the program changes a few tics or a 32nd before it was needed or notes at the same timing wouldn't sound. Another solution was to place the first notes on the program changing device slightly late. Midi can be slow like that and you can run into throughput limitations, slow but loveable like myself in the morning.

ikeaboy · Post by **ikeaboy** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:35 pm

Also Live doesn't support the Sytem exclusive Messages needed to harness synths like the Virus properly (someone please correct me).

Korhan · Post by **Korhan** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:07 am

I know the need to send program change messages a little earlier than the first note, however Ableton does not allow you to do that because it sends such messages at the start of a clip, which usually has the first note, too. I would suggest a look ahead function, but I don't know if that's possible to implement within Ableton. I also agree with the MIDI timing problem - I tried it with my ER-1 and the result was not acceptable.

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:39 am

just to add my 2 cents here...

i used to be one of those logic midi heads.... running heaps of midi channels to my various hardware synths, and mix through an analog desk and back into logic for mix down...

i used to actually like keeping stuff in midi form for as long as possible... you know assign patch change messages... cc filter sweeps... blah blah...

but since i turned to live, i guess i've been much more into the process of chopping up audio. When live 4 came out, i was (and still am) excited about using all my outboard synths to greater effect again.

but adapting to this new process has involved me changing the way i use midi. I no longer want to send patch changes to synths! Often i'll dial up a sound, record it in midi, fix any timing issues (usually made by my shoddy playing), play back the midi, tweak away the synth parameters, patch through other outboard gear or old guitar pedals, and record it as audio straight back in... or even send the midi notes to two synths and blend the sounds in the mixer....

i find this much more useful, as keeping track of patch changes is a pain in the arse. Often i will label the midi file, and assign the patch change number to the clip, but more often than not, this is purely for record keeping... in case i need to go back and fix something.

any other timing issues with the midi out stuff, i can kinda handle, 'cause i know that i can just fix them after i've recorded it as audio...

so yeah... i guess for me, the very 'un-logic-ness' of live has actually made my workflow with midi much better. i don't really see the limitations.. i see the possibilities.

but all that said... i'm all up for better midi timing!

regards,
-am

Korhan · Post by **Korhan** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:02 pm

am, what you say applies perfectly to studio work. however, when you want to use external grooveboxes for live work, things get problematic. I'm sure Ableton will come up with a fix as this is not a major programming paradigm shift!

groov_in · Post by **groov_in** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:12 am

It’s pretty obvious that things need to improve with regard to midi in Live. (Really need more channels to send midi clock data). If any of the Ableton crew are out there would you care to comment? Perhaps give us some indication of LIVE’s future update plans.