Writing Songs vs. Everything Else... your thoughts?

[starving student]

first things first. I'm one of those that believes art is in the eye of the beholder if it even exist at all.
also please don't say anything negative about this clip I'm not trying to bash this guy or his music, I actually like his music. I'm just using this clip as an example for what I'm talking about.

is music like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCcXt8VRtkU akin to bands that jam rather than write, or a rapper can freestyle but cannot write and remember verses. I understand the concept of spontaneously jamming out a song, it's a technique I use often, but I never think about it as something that replaces sitting down and writing a song. I've been using ableton for quite some time and of course know allot of people that do as well and some of my friends think of sitting down and writing songs as something passe, and often pride themselves in the fact that there was no thought going into a composition before hand, I'm just curious how many of us here share those notions. It might sound funny but when I first heard Johnny Cash it made a difference in my musical life and I don't even make the kind of music he makes I make hiphop, there are many many songs that I would feel insane of if I thought that they had less value because they were'nt created through looping with no prep before hand so i guess what I'm saying is culturally speaking where does this come from in your own lives and in your own opinion of course?

[Rabalder]

I draw a lot of inspiration from how jazz handles this.
Written songs, but with the freedom to improvise when/if you feel like it.

Writing a good song is very hard.
Thats probably why most people enjoy looping. Its easy, and you can begin right away.

Personally I think improv-looping is a waste of tallent. (thats if you actually have a tallent..)

[oddstep]

yeah, its not a particularly structured composition. it does have a structure tho', elements building up and declining in a linear fashion.
Its an interesting idea to distinguish pre composed pieces from pure improvisation but in reality all scores are subject to variable interpretation, all improvisation is informed by a performer's habits .. which sort of become an unconsidered/unreflected upon score. Generally improv/jams tend to be structurally simple and three times too long... because they are effectively a form of rehearsal for a composition (that may never be developed further). interesting composition is the level up from 'sounds good' innit. some people/groups are really good producing dynamic improvised performances that have loads of structural interest, some people write really boring songs.

[oddstep]

Personally I think improv-looping is a waste of tallent. (thats if you actually have a tallent..)

yeah, its underachieving. more of a process than an outcome

[ChrisMack99]

I personally think improv looping is really really cool. EOTO is my favorite band of all time. And it is definitely art. I truly believe that if I just sit down and right a song, the emotions that the song carries must have come from somewhere in my subconscious, and I am now expressing them musically.

Sure I'll go back and edit and re-edit a hundred times, but I always loosely improv the general structure of a song. That or I'll get one idea for a melody or interesting drum pattern or whatever in my head, put it down, and see where it goes.

[JuanSOLO]

I actually dug that track. Even if one were not into it, you'd have to have a little respect for the time it took the guy to set all that up and perform it very effortlessly. Even though it looks somewhat improvised, I would say it's far from it. All the sounds, loops, and even notes played look pre-planned, and well rehearsed. Granted there is a little room for improvisation, but it seemed such a small amount of looseness. I feel like this type of performing, is just one step beyond DJing. You can build a song from drum loops and playing notes on some synths, then it's all about a mixing/fx improv.

I started to think that when it comes to performing by yourself, as a one man act, you are limited by 2 hands and 2 feet, so relying on recording loops, to achieve all the elements of a "band," making a full sound, becomes a solution. Or something like that.

The possibilities of true improve open up so much more when you add more people in the mix because the individual can get away with focusing on their personal task and how it communicates with others making sounds.

Personally I prefer a hybrid style of writing songs that leave a LOT of room for improvisation. In my latest band we rely on "cues" to segway from improvisation to written, and vice versa. I feel like it's much more fun and I dont loose interest in my own material so fast. However the songs are all "written" out of pure improvisation. We record rehearsals, and then listen to them for parts we feel like we could dial in on an refine into something we can recreate with more impact. At the same time we leave a lot of open ended stuff, so much of our material stays loose and sounds quite a bit different each time we play it. In other bands I have played in, the best written material came from one person bringing a melody, or a bass line, or a cool drum beat, and everyone else just start jamming on it and suddenly/telepathicly making some key changes etc. We would then refine those efforts into a tighter version.

I've always felt that meticulously writing every part of a song intro/verse/corus/bridge etc, is self indulgent and becomes boring to others in a band.

Like someone has already said though, writing really good songs is hard. Some got it, some dont.

[Angstrom]

is music like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCcXt8VRtkU akin to bands that jam rather than write, or a rapper can freestyle but cannot write and remember verses.

I'm not sure those two examples are equivalent. In most cases people who jam will record or remember what they did and pull out that better parts and incorporate them into songs.

I would say that these looper jams are fine enough as jams, noodly proto-music, and often people who do them will extract the good bits and assemble them into something more defined. Of course some people never do any more than jam, and some people do little more than loop samples. If somebody doesn't want to excel and prefers the easy life then that's their choice and they are free to make it. If it makes them happy that's fine. It's just not my choice of listening material.

[memes_33]

frank zappa used to record every show and would go back to his improvised guitar solos and use those ideas for new compositions. i think he called improvisation "composing on the fly" or something

[starving student]

of course you guys know dosh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzsmWoYMIo now I'm simply inlove with what he does but anyway even though what he does looks like the same thing it's clearly not cause he's actually composing this way and he'll repeat the song the way he wrote it the next time you see him, unless he just wants to spice it up a little

[starving student]

my thoughts lean towards Angstroms point of view but what is it with the scenes today where writing a song is looked upon like it's cheating or something. In live electronic music there seems to have been a shift towards this way of thinking I just don't get where it comes from. (course it comes from to each his own) but I mean collectively speaking

[starving student]

. I feel like this type of performing, is just one step beyond DJing. You can build a song from drum loops and playing notes on some synths, then it's all about a mixing/fx improv.

interesting way to look at it, I see what you are saying. I guess the lines between performing and composing are so blurred at this time that it's harder to define anything, I know that forever artist have been throwing ideas at walls and seeing what sticks as a common practice but it seems like in this tech age that allot of the times the whole performance is just throwing stuff at the wall, at the same time I don't want to generalise but it seems like electronic artist are increasingly more and more impatient these days, remember when an album took a year to make and now people are popping them out in 2 weeks

[JuanSOLO]

...where writing a song is looked upon like it's cheating or something. In live electronic music there seems to have been a shift towards this way of thinking I just don't get where it comes from. (course it comes from to each his own) but I mean collectively speaking

I'm thinking it comes from the fear that writing a song with something like Ableton Live, and "performing?" that song with the same tools, can feel and look like pushing a play button. So some strange stigma is born, that written songs is cheating. Also, I think this feeling gets backed up by lazy song writers, or insecure ones, who have realized how much hard work goes into writing. Instead of admitting the truth that writing, or writing GOOD material is hard and they are too lazy or lack the skills, so they spit out some smoke screen BS about it as "cheating."

I have built many Live sets where I thought it was gonna be some crazy spontaneous feeling shit. All the dummy clips, smart knobs, and loops just made it feel like using an iPod. It's interesting when using something like Live, because there are SO many possibilities on how to execute the same song or ideas.

An old friend of mine, lead guitar player, always came to practice with some kick ass fragment of a song, something magical. However that mother fucker never had the patience to take those gems and sculpt them into a complete song. Damn shame too, he could have been an amazing song writer, but I think fear and laziness ruined it.

...remember when an album took a year to make and now people are popping them out in 2 weeks

YEAH, but back when people used to make albums in a year was back when the whole album was worth hearing. Most whole albums these days sound like a bunch of unrefined work, or filler bullshit with maybe one good track. One of my favorite albums front to back is Massive Attacks "Mezzanine," I think it took them YEARS to make it. And to me the effort put into it creates something timless to listen too, not just this years FAD sounds.

[JuanSOLO]

One of the things that I always felt is a stumbling block in writing was learning how to disconnect ones ego from the process and self evaluate songs as a listener, not the writer. Some people just think because "they" wrote some shit and put work into it, that it's a good song. It seems difficult sometimes to hear you own music and judge it as if someone told you to listen to this new band.

I really enjoy working with people who are willing to say, "This song we wrote, is almost there, but we have re-worked it to death, lets leave it alone an move on to something new, something fresh"

It's liberating to escape the ego of, "every song I slave over needs to be heard." Some songs are better off as stepping stones to new directions or solid material, or even examples of what not to do.

[starving student]

great post Juan, you're saying some shit we all need to be reminded of sometime. I know cats that spend more time and focus on making a patch than they do to write the song, another shift these days is from the 'song' to the 'edits of the song' that music is getting rated by. if there was something decent there one wouldn't know it for all of the trouble we go through to fuck shit up with edits, most songs are just buried under heaps of word processing commands, being a manglist I'm guilty of this myself but I still know the difference. one of these days somebody's gonna put out this groundbreaking album thats gonna freak everybody out cause it has no edits.

[nuxnamon]

One of the things that I always felt is a stumbling block in writing was learning how to disconnect ones ego from the process and self evaluate songs as a listener, not the writer. Some people just think because "they" wrote some shit and put work into it, that it's a good song. It seems difficult sometimes to hear you own music and judge it as if someone told you to listen to this new band.

I really enjoy working with people who are willing to say, "This song we wrote, is almost there, but we have re-worked it to death, lets leave it alone an move on to something new, something fresh"

It's liberating to escape the ego of, "every song I slave over needs to be heard." Some songs are better off as stepping stones to new directions or solid material, or even examples of what not to do.

Great insight.