What's the proper name for this chord?

[crumhorn]

Recently I've been using this chord a lot on the guitar: starting from the bottom string the notes are F C F A B E.

It's basically a major 7th with a B added, but what is the right name for it? It's not really a Maj7b5 because it still has the C.

Must I resort to just calling it FMaj7 add B?.

[chapelier fou]

As you wish, as long as it sounds good....

Could be considered as FMaj11, with just the 9th missing (G).

Or F7 sus4.

Depends also on where it goes.

(In france, we don't exactly wrote chords like that)

[doghouse]

Chord names depend on the context.

What key are you in, what chord progression, etc.

Example:

C E G D could be a Cmaj9, Gmsus4, D9sus4, Em7#5, etc.

Guitar voicings make it even worse to ID a chord because they allow a lot of weird inversions.

[broc]

FMaj7#11

[crumhorn]

Chord names depend on the context.

What key are you in, what chord progression, etc.

Example:

C E G D could be a Cmaj9, Gmsus4, D9sus4, Em7#5, etc.

Guitar voicings make it even worse to ID a chord because they allow a lot of weird inversions.

It's basically an E phrygian mode improvisation over Em7 and Fmaj7, It's definitely some species of F major.

[crumhorn]

FMaj7#11

That seems to make sense

[stringtapper]

FMaj7#11

This.

Think about it. If you're thinking in an E phrygian mode then next mode up starting on F will be what?

F Lydian, which you know has a #4, which gets extended as a #11.

[crumhorn]

I think that's a very good and convincing explanation stringtapper.

I shouldn't really worry about it but I just get bugged by these things sometimes.

Here's a rough first take of the song in case anyone is interested in what phrygian mode sounds like. -> http://originals.sharehost.co.uk/1235.mp3

[crumhorn]

Just been thinking about this over a pipe and a pint of beer.

I think it would be a good idea if complex chords were named after their natural modes.

So instead if having ridiculously complex names for the 7 different flavours of 13th chords you could just have a Lydian 13th or a Dorian 13th, etc.

Instead of half diminished 7th or minor 7 b5 as some people call it you could just call it a Locrian 7th.

It will never catch on though

[chapelier fou]

They are, actually.
They have sense only in the context of tonal music.

[Incornsyucopia23]

Just been thinking about this over a pipe and a pint of beer.

I think it would be a good idea if complex chords were named after their natural modes.

So instead if having ridiculously complex names for the 7 different flavours of 13th chords you could just have a Lydian 13th or a Dorian 13th, etc.

Instead of half diminished 7th or minor 7 b5 as some people call it you could just call it a Locrian 7th.

It will never catch on though

If one is just using the modes of the major scale then this system works to some degree although only if you're sticking with the most "inside" mode given the overall progression. For example, Dm7-G7-Cmaj7: the easiest and most "inside" would be to use D Dorian, G Mixo. and C Ionian, but one could use, among other possibilities, D Aeolian, G melodic dominant (fifth mode of melodic minor) and C Lydian. And it doesn't work at all once you go outside of the major scale pitch collection. After all, what's the natural mode of a dom7b9#11 chord? Certainly not mixolydian, the only dominant mode of the major scale. Instead, one could use either the symmetrical dominant (octatonic: half-whole) scale or the altered dominant (or super locrian), the 7th mode of melodic minor. Dom7Alt is the one that you do often see (and I use) since it tells you that since all possible dominant alterations are available (b9, #9, #11/b5, #5/b13) that any dominant scale that has the alterations can be used, although only altered dominant has them all. My point is, a great deal of the interest in melodic improvisation is being able to choose which scales to use over harmonies and it's very rarely the case that there is only ONE mode that can be used over a chord as your proposal would suggest.

[stringtapper]

Just been thinking about this over a pipe and a pint of beer.

I think it would be a good idea if complex chords were named after their natural modes.

So instead if having ridiculously complex names for the 7 different flavours of 13th chords you could just have a Lydian 13th or a Dorian 13th, etc.

Instead of half diminished 7th or minor 7 b5 as some people call it you could just call it a Locrian 7th.

It will never catch on though

If one is just using the modes of the major scale then this system works to some degree although only if you're sticking with the most "inside" mode given the overall progression. For example, Dm7-G7-Cmaj7: the easiest and most "inside" would be to use D Dorian, G Mixo. and C Ionian, but one could use, among other possibilities, D Aeolian, G melodic dominant (fifth mode of melodic minor) and C Lydian. And it doesn't work at all once you go outside of the major scale pitch collection. After all, what's the natural mode of a dom7b9#11 chord? Certainly not mixolydian, the only dominant mode of the major scale. Instead, one could use either the symmetrical dominant (octatonic: half-whole) scale or the altered dominant (or super locrian), the 7th mode of melodic minor. Dom7Alt is the one that you do often see (and I use) since it tells you that since all possible dominant alterations are available (b9, #9, #11/b5, #5/b13) that any dominant scale that has the alterations can be used, although only altered dominant has them all. My point is, a great deal of the interest in melodic improvisation is being able to choose which scales to use over harmonies and it's very rarely the case that there is only ONE mode that can be used over a chord as your proposal would suggest.

Well said.

[crumhorn]

OK point taken.

But I still think the idea is neat, even if it's not sufficient to describe non tonal harmony.

Especially for 11th and 13th chords.

In the example of dom7b9#11 the word Dominant is used in the same way as I would use the word Myxolidian so to me this would me a Myx7b9#11. The name dom7b9#11 just says which natural (diatonic) chord it most resembles and how it is altered to differ from that chord. Effectively saying "It's like a dominant 11th but the ninth is flattened and the 11th is sharpened."

In the traditional system chord names are all based on the chords of natural major and minor modes with alterations denoted by b9, b5, #11 or whatever. This leads to some complex spellings for what are perfectly natural chords. If we allow ourselves to name chords after other modes it would simplify things eg instead of m7b9 just call it a Phrygian 9th.

[Incornsyucopia23]

OK point taken.

But I still think the idea is neat, even if it's not sufficient to describe non tonal harmony.

Especially for 11th and 13th chords.

In the example of dom7b9#11 the word Dominant is used in the same way as I would use the word Myxolidian so to me this would me a Myx7b9#11. The name dom7b9#11 just says which natural (diatonic) chord it most resembles and how it is altered to differ from that chord. Effectively saying "It's like a dominant 11th but the ninth is flattened and the 11th is sharpened."

In the traditional system chord names are all based on the chords of natural major and minor modes with alterations denoted by b9, b5, #11 or whatever. This leads to some complex spellings for what are perfectly natural chords. If we allow ourselves to name chords after other modes it would simplify things eg instead of m7b9 just call it a Phrygian 9th.

I agree, using modal names has uses. In big band charts, for example, composers/arrangers often use them in order to tell whoever's improvising what pitch collections to use, which is sometimes of crucial importance given the background arrangements: e.g. the harmony is Dm7, but the composer wants D Phrygian there so writes that to make clear that they don't want Aeolian or Dorian. So I agree with you that in the case of 11th and 13th chords, using modal names is sometimes simpler: instead of Cmaj13#11, C Lydian would work since it's the only possible scale choice. On the other hand, chords names often have two functions: to indicate to the soloist what the scale possibilities are and to tell the accompanist what chords to play. The value of Dm13 over D Dorian is that the former tells the accompanist that they should voice their harmony with the 13th, whereas D Dorian is far less specific. It really comes down to how specific the composer/arranger wants to be.

What I'm not clear on from your explanation, though, and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, is what is simpler about AMyx7b9#11 compared to A7b9#11? To me, invoking Mixolydian is unnecessarily complicated since either of the scales one would use over this chord, symmetrical-dominant or altered dominant, are substantially different than Mixo. A7b9#11, for example, gives the improviser the option of which to use (depending on whether he/she wants the perfect 5th of the sym.-dom, or the #5 of the altered), just like Em7b5 gives the option of either E Locrian or Locrian #2 (6th mode of melodic minor) and Gmaj9 either G Ionian or Lydian.

Thanks for the excuse to geek out on chord-scale theory!

[crumhorn]

What I'm not clear on from your explanation, though, and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, is what is simpler about AMyx7b9#11 compared to A7b9#11?

No your right it's no better in that case, I was just trying to show that it's no worse. History has blessed us with the notion of a Dominant 7th but if we were making all this stuff up from scratch again then Myxolidian 7th would do as well.

The main reason I'm suddenly very interested in understanding all this is I want to add chords to my fretboard visualiser project in a way that properly represents the underlying theory and also relates the chords to the scales that they are derived from. At the moment I've done chords as a kind of bastardised version of a scale. It's important because I want to include the ability to add user definable scale and chord types and I'd like the editor to make sense in terms of conventional music theory.

Thanks for the excuse to geek out on chord-scale theory!

My pleasure.

I think it should be seen as a public duty for somebody to keep a music theory thread alive at all times.