Working comfortably with a (very) large set - tips wanted.

[Harry&Co]

Hi all,

So i have a band consiting of me and my "machines" on the one hand (APC40 + MPK25 + QuNeo linked to Ableton Live running a number of VSTs) and some live musicians on the other. We have an hour-and-a-half-long set consisting of 16 pieces and we're almost ready to take the stage by storm, but one problem lingers on my side of things.

I find having all 16 pieces in one set extremely impractical, as i end up with well over 200 tracks and scenes, which is very slow to load and a nightmare to navigate (especially since Ableton seems to refuse to center the window around the APC40's red box).

Would any of you have any tips you'd be willing to share that could help make my set more manageable ? I considered splitting it into several parts over two laptops instead of one, but i probably would have to have two of everything, including controllers (or would i ?) which i can't afford at the moment.

PS: sorry if this has been covered in another topic, but if it exists i failed to find it...

[pepezabala]

often discussed, everyone has his/her own style of doing big livesets.

I render my tracks down to a template of max 8 audiochannels and have a big liveset with 200 or so scenes. I can comfortably navigate through this set with one controller and trigger everything fine. I only tweak efx and do some livelooping of voice and guitar on two audiochannels, no vsts or live-sqeuencing, so I got it easy.

Basically you need to decide what you are actaully really going to do live, and render everything else down to a couple of audiotracks.

[infernal.machine]

Yeah, rendering a couple versions of a backing track is a good way to go.

And I hate big sets so I just save my finished tracks in a dedicated folder so I can just drag em in from the browser at any time.

[jestermgee]

What do you actually do in your set with Ableton? Do you tweak FX only, play patterns and record the loops on-the-fly? Have a full "song" created using clips then play them all back "live"?

If you are not creating the song from scratch using the instruments then I would do what was suggested and just render each individual track to clips. You could then fit them easier and it would lessen the issue of a plugin crash or something. Just imagin if you were using something like a Jbridge wrapped VST and had the audio glitch out and cause an ear shattering noise (has happened to me several times).

That seems to be what most here do. You can then add the "tweakable" FX chains and have them on your controllers.

The other option I guess depending on your set is to just open each track when you need it. Less than perfect but I have seen some people use scripts and automation they can trigger from MIDI controls (using Bome and other tools) to open another set without needing to go to the PC. You just need to figure out how long a set would take to open and how to fill in that time (and just hope nothing goes wrong).

[Harry&Co]

What do you actually do in your set with Ableton? Do you tweak FX only, play patterns and record the loops on-the-fly? Have a full "song" created using clips then play them all back "live"?

All of the above, but not all the time. I try to make the most of Ableton, but i also play live instruments on stage, so i automate some parts and let the automation work its magic, hence the huge amount of scenes in my set.

And I hate big sets so I just save my finished tracks in a dedicated folder so I can just drag em in from the browser at any time.

Thanks for the tip! But the trouble with that is that i'd lose the midi setup for the said tracks, and there's rather a large amount of midi involved in my set...

Basically you need to decide what you are actaully really going to do live, and render everything else down to a couple of audiotracks.

I like that idea. I wouldn't end up with as few tracks as you, as i run a few VSTs, but it would definitely lower the number of tracks. However isn't audio quality going to be an issue with those rendered tracks?


Have any of you ever had the same problem as i keep running into, where Ableton doesn't center its window around the APC40's red box?

[H20nly]

isn't audio quality going to be an issue with those rendered tracks?

no. they'll be fine.

even if you accidentally manage to lower the bit rate or something your audience won't suddenly stop and cock their heads to the side like a bunch of poodles when you play the clips... they won't notice. if any of them do... and they approach you after the show to talk about it... listen. you will be talking to a bad ass.

[Pitch Black]

Have any of you ever had the same problem as i keep running into, where Ableton doesn't center its window around the APC40's red box?

I don't run an APC, but if you switch off "Select on Launch" in Live's Prefs > Record/Warp/Launch does that fix it?

[peter181]

I group tracks by song, and sort it out vertically so I use scenes to trigger the next song, which gives me a moment to open/close groups. My current live set is like 70 tracks and it takes a few minutes to load, but whatever, it's still all live. No idea how an APC works, but I use an LPD8 and usually lock it to one track in each song, then do the rest with a mouse. If you're reusing any instruments/effects chains then maybe you could do some consolidating to trim things down, or maybe program changes if any of the vsts respond to that?

Oh yeah, I should add that I work on each group/song separately and drop them all in only when I'm ready to practice the set as a whole. Haven't had any midi routing problems doing that, though the most I do is between different tracks in the set, and all Ableton devices.. Then if I edit the combined file I drag each group out to resave.

[Harry&Co]

Hi guys !

I just wanted to check in and say that i am following your precious advice, and that i am currently in the process of rendering all the parts in my set that i don't need to tweak in a live environment. I won't end up with 8 tracks like pepezabala, but so far this technique has massively reduced my set's foot print and CPU usage, and i haven't noticed a drop in audio quality.

So thanks all for your help. You've been great !

if any of them do... and they approach you after the show to talk about it... listen. you will be talking to a bad ass.

I sure will ! Thanks for the advice

I don't run an APC, but if you switch off "Select on Launch" in Live's Prefs > Record/Warp/Launch does that fix it?

Nope ! It didn't work, and i still would love it if someone could provide a solution to this, but since i now have a much smaller set to deal with it isn't as much of a problem as before.

[bosonHavoc]

Hi guys !

I just wanted to check in and say that i am following your precious advice, and that i am currently in the process of rendering all the parts in my set that i don't need to tweak in a live environment. I won't end up with 8 tracks like pepezabala, but so far this technique has massively reduced my set's foot print and CPU usage, and i haven't noticed a drop in audio quality.

So thanks all for your help. You've been great !

Awesome. great advice in this thread.

what i would like to add is how your using your vsts.
if your using multiple instance of the same vst but not in the same song
you can send program change with a midi clip so as to save resources
and automatically cue up the patches when needed.

native live devices use resources better and free up resources when not in use.
try to be as native as possible.
if you have suite you can try and recreate your 3rd party sounds with live devices.

you can also rack up instruments then automate the chain selector with a midi clip
to audio cue up your patched and cut down on tracks.
a little trick with the chain selector for this function is to not macro map it
this way when you work with the envelope in clip view it will use numbers and not percentage.


and do not feel like you have to trigger ever single change (i have that problem its a control freak thing)
if it has to be the same every time and you have better things to do, Render it!
Render automation, Render everything that you are not doing.
keep back ups of your tracks unrenderd so you can always go back and fix..

but do not render with to much reverb. each room is different and if you render with to much reverb it can get nasty.
have a nice reverb on a send so you can adjust as needed.


my approach to ableton is simple

I do not want to touch the computer on stage ever.
--only time i have to touch my computer is because something went wrong lol

I don't want to have to change presets or patches.
-- if you think this way you will find ways to have ableton cue up allot patches and other things

Clyphx is key. seriously, awesome! just click..
http://beatwise.proboards.com/index.cgi ... thread=992


Just except that trouble shooting is part of life and you are the tech.
and user error is the biggest cause. rule out simple, the logical, then the wtf are you kidding me problems.


ok i didn't to type this long.
good luck!

[Harry&Co]

More great tips ! Thanks ! I have now got tons of work to do on my set, but once i've done all this it will have shrunk to next-to-nothing thanks to you all.

my approach to ableton is simple

I do not want to touch the computer on stage ever.
--only time i have to touch my computer is because something went wrong lol

I don't want to have to change presets or patches.
-- if you think this way you will find ways to have ableton cue up allot patches and other things

Same here ! I don't want to look as though i'm checking my email. I've been practising this and i now only look at my screen for reference when i switch songs.

I obviously still have a lot to learn when it comes to midi, though. For instance :

you can send program change with a midi clip so as to save resources
and automatically cue up the patches when needed.

I had no idea you could do this. I've been using program changes to switch between sounds in Massive, but i'm triggering them from my keyboard, and doing this would make the transitions so much cleaner! Care to teach me how ?

you can also rack up instruments then automate the chain selector with a midi clip
to audio cue up your patched and cut down on tracks.

Again, that sounds brilliant, but how do you do it ?