USB2 vs Firewire for Audio Interface (PC) ?????

[El Epho]

Ok, I'm doing a pre-sale configuration on a new Win7 computer to run Live 9. I've got most of the stuff figured out. However I've gathered some conflicting info regarding which protocol to employ for the audio interface. I want to use a decent 8x8 but I do NOT want to break the friggin bank doing it.

I was advised by the inventor of Silent Way to go with USB2 and ASIO. He seemed to believe that USB2 outperforms Firewire. Other people have said that Firewire is the shizgizzle fanizzle pizzle. And yet others have advised me to go PCI card.

Since I'm pretty much a non-knowing knucklehead on such matters, I'm asking for help on this. There's some pretty heavy cash at stake here, so I need ot get this right. I'm going 64 bit all the way jsyk (i5, Win7-64, Live 9x64 Suite). I've already bought Live 9, and am in the pre-sale process of configuring the new PC. I've yet to select an Audio Interface.

This thread has been helpful for a lot of things .... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111880

Anyhow .... help would be appreciated!

Thank you.

[miekwave]

Ok, I'm doing a pre-sale configuration on a new Win7 computer to run Live 9. I've got most of the stuff figured out. However I've gathered some conflicting info regarding which protocol to employ for the audio interface. I want to use a decent 8x8 but I do NOT want to break the friggin bank doing it.

I was advised by the inventor of Silent Way to go with USB2 and ASIO. He seemed to believe that USB2 outperforms Firewire. Other people have said that Firewire is the shizgizzle fanizzle pizzle. And yet others have advised me to go PCI card.

Since I'm pretty much a non-knowing knucklehead on such matters, I'm asking for help on this. There's some pretty heavy cash at stake here, so I need ot get this right. I'm going 64 bit all the way jsyk (i5, Win7-64, Live 9x64 Suite). I've already bought Live 9, and am in the pre-sale process of configuring the new PC. I've yet to select an Audio Interface.

This thread has been helpful for a lot of things .... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111880

Anyhow .... help would be appreciated!

Thank you.

Firewire vs USB
Firewire has less compatibility issues on driver installation and less likely to crash / conflict with other driver / dma (memory access ports) more FIrewire devices support 96k/24 or 192k/24 than USB 2.0 devices, firewire devices can be physically daisy chained and assigned port ids, reducing port errors

USB generally has less expensive cables than firewire cables, I was able to address a maximum of 48k/24bit x2 or x4 on usb 2.0, usb can not be daisy chained and requires a hub or extra ports - Your Audio interface should be plugged into its own USB port that is free of mixing dma channels/ports with other usb ports for optimal performances, usb audio interfaces tend to be glitchy (pop/snaps/drop outs/etc) when used in a HUB with other USB devices on the same hub, this is because the stream buffers hold (interrupt) the "dma (memory chunk) signal" for .1-2ms, normally we wouldn't notice it except in audio, a 0.1ms drop from audio data stream can easily clip your signal, I rarely experience this artifact using a firewire interface

Having said that, you shouldn't worry about it since you need to plug 5+ controllers/USB/Firewire devices and have 10+ firewire/usb ports open and running at the same time to reproduce the issues described above, if you are only connecting 2 or 3 devices, then you should be able to run 48/24 or 44.1/24 stereo in and out between 128 or 256 same latency (which amounts to virtually instant). Top Firewire devices can yeald a decent 64-96 sample buffer size without drop outs,

A PCI/PCIe card (such as Pro Tools Native) gives you the fastest possible responce, it can run dozens of tracks in and doezens of tracks out at 196k/24 at 64 sample buffer with virtually little to no drop outs (where if you attempted to reproduce that on a USB or firewire interface you will crash)

I hope that helps!

[El Epho]

Ok, I'm doing a pre-sale configuration on a new Win7 computer to run Live 9. I've got most of the stuff figured out. However I've gathered some conflicting info regarding which protocol to employ for the audio interface. I want to use a decent 8x8 but I do NOT want to break the friggin bank doing it.

I was advised by the inventor of Silent Way to go with USB2 and ASIO. He seemed to believe that USB2 outperforms Firewire. Other people have said that Firewire is the shizgizzle fanizzle pizzle. And yet others have advised me to go PCI card.

Since I'm pretty much a non-knowing knucklehead on such matters, I'm asking for help on this. There's some pretty heavy cash at stake here, so I need ot get this right. I'm going 64 bit all the way jsyk (i5, Win7-64, Live 9x64 Suite). I've already bought Live 9, and am in the pre-sale process of configuring the new PC. I've yet to select an Audio Interface.

This thread has been helpful for a lot of things .... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111880

Anyhow .... help would be appreciated!

Thank you.

Firewire vs USB
Firewire has less compatibility issues on driver installation and less likely to crash / conflict with other driver / dma (memory access ports) more FIrewire devices support 96k/24 or 192k/24 than USB 2.0 devices, firewire devices can be physically daisy chained and assigned port ids, reducing port errors

USB generally has less expensive cables than firewire cables, I was able to address a maximum of 48k/24bit x2 or x4 on usb 2.0, usb can not be daisy chained and requires a hub or extra ports - Your Audio interface should be plugged into its own USB port that is free of mixing dma channels/ports with other usb ports for optimal performances, usb audio interfaces tend to be glitchy (pop/snaps/drop outs/etc) when used in a HUB with other USB devices on the same hub, this is because the stream buffers hold (interrupt) the "dma (memory chunk) signal" for .1-2ms, normally we wouldn't notice it except in audio, a 0.1ms drop from audio data stream can easily clip your signal, I rarely experience this artifact using a firewire interface

Having said that, you shouldn't worry about it since you need to plug 5+ controllers/USB/Firewire devices and have 10+ firewire/usb ports open and running at the same time to reproduce the issues described above, if you are only connecting 2 or 3 devices, then you should be able to run 48/24 or 44.1/24 stereo in and out between 128 or 256 same latency (which amounts to virtually instant). Top Firewire devices can yeald a decent 64-96 sample buffer size without drop outs,

A PCI/PCIe card (such as Pro Tools Native) gives you the fastest possible responce, it can run dozens of tracks in and doezens of tracks out at 196k/24 at 64 sample buffer with virtually little to no drop outs (where if you attempted to reproduce that on a USB or firewire interface you will crash)

I hope that helps!

Thank you!

So in short the PCI card is the ultimate answer, do I have that correct? And FW seems to be a great 2nd choice.

Wow .... I guess Os (at Expert Sleepers) has his own opinions for his own reasons. He somehow believes USB2 is the wave of the near future and is superior to FW in every respect. I'm glad someone here got me to question that and ultimately I posted this thread.

OK, so the next obvious question is what is the difference between PCI and PCIe ???

[miekwave]

Thank you!

So in short the PCI card is the ultimate answer, do I have that correct? And FW seems to be a great 2nd choice.

Wow .... I guess Os (at Expert Sleepers) has his own opinions for his own reasons. He somehow believes USB2 is the wave of the near future and is superior to FW in every respect. I'm glad someone here got me to question that and ultimately I posted this thread.

OK, so the next obvious question is what is the difference between PCI and PCIe ???

I don't want to mislead you. Budget wise, usb 2.0 tend to give you the best price/performance ratio. Firewire devices tend to have a better roadworthy builds. Other than that you end up paying for bells and whistles. The next thing you should consider are the preamps being used. Most of the time time entry level interface preamps would suffice. However if you are recording condenser mics or high end mics, then it might be worthwhile to purchase a interface that contains higher quality preamps. If you are playing live shows a typical 4x4 device will suffice.

Pci option may cost 4x the cost of a uab or firewire solution. If you intend to do realtime daw to console mixes using a patchbay and would like to integrate a bunch of outbord into external instrument input tracks (you can also substitute wxternal input instrument as a aux effect send return, for example I do thia with lexicon reverb or tube outboard to remiz a stem track) the pci or pxie is the best solution.

If you are mixing with greater than 40 tracks then you might need a pci card

Pci and pcie depends on your motherboard, most current ATX and MATX support multiple PCI cards and has a pcie slots too. Pcie has fewer pins than pci, other than that its the same for all intents and purposes. Dedicated audio cards also have the added benefit of removing a lot of cpu strain on high track counts. The best ones on the market imo are motu 24io (pci version) and Avid Pro Tools native card

[Guillermo Barrancos]

DO NOT go for Firewire!

Firewire is history! And been replaced by Thunderbolt 2 years ago.
Pretty much all new laptops do not come with Firewire anymore, but with USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt.
The manufacturers are just slow to catch up and release USB 3.0 / Thunderbolt devices.

The above poster has valid comments regarding USB vs FireWire, but at this moment in time your best bet will be to go with a good quality USB 2.0 audio interface.
Focusrite, Motu, etc all make good quality USB 2.0 audio interfaces in different price ranges, depending on your Input/Output needs.

And who uses 192kHz? I mean... seriously? In the end you still mix down in 44,1kHz.
But still.... if you want to use it, you can, as pretty much all higher end USB 2.0 devices support it too these days.

[carrieres]

^^ +1 i have a very bad experience between firewire and win7

[Goddard]

^^ +1 i have a very bad experience between firewire and win7

Complaining about firewire in win7 environment is like complaining about your shoes being uncomfortable with both legs cut off.
You should acknowledge the difference between pc firewire 400 (4pins - without power supply) and Mac firewire 400 (6pins).
Firewire still outruns USB2 interfaces during multitracking (recording live more then 2 tracks at once - 8 tracks in 24/96 on USB2 interface is absolutely impossible. Why? Because firewire is controlled by it's own chipset and USB runs through the main CPU. Even with i7 processor USB sucks.
If you find firewire outdated and want to record more than two tracks at once buy (or wait for more to choose from...) a thunderbolt interface instead.
For some ITB stereo production USB may be enough though...
And if you plan to use the legit software - not the cracked and instable warez, choose Mac.
Windows is nothing but pain in the ass, distracting all the time with it's neverending issues.
Switched to Mac (and firewire in 2007 and never looked back...).
I'm not a fanboy of Mac (it works flawlessly and there's nothing special about it) - just hate the Windows for all the time I wasted to keep it running.
Skål!

[Guillermo Barrancos]

^^ +1 i have a very bad experience between firewire and win7

Complaining about firewire in win7 environment is like complaining about your shoes being uncomfortable with both legs cut off.
You should acknowledge the difference between pc firewire 400 (4pins - without power supply) and Mac firewire 400 (6pins).
Firewire still outruns USB2 interfaces during multitracking (recording live more then 2 tracks at once - 8 tracks in 24/96 on USB2 interface is absolutely impossible. Why? Because firewire is controlled by it's own chipset and USB runs through the main CPU. Even with i7 processor USB sucks.
If you find firewire outdated and want to record more than two tracks at once buy (or wait for more to choose from...) a thunderbolt interface instead.
For some ITB stereo production USB may be enough though...
And if you plan to use the legit software - not the cracked and instable warez, choose Mac.
Windows is nothing but pain in the ass, distracting all the time with it's neverending issues.
Switched to Mac (and firewire in 2007 and never looked back...).
I'm not a fanboy of Mac (it works flawlessly and there's nothing special about it) - just hate the Windows for all the time I wasted to keep it running.
Skål!

It´s not Windows fault that some audio interface manufacturers can´t properly code decent drivers!

I had a M-audio Firewire Audio interface for years and it ran perfectly fine in both Windows XP and Windows 7.

Just that down the line I switched to a new windows laptop with USB 3.0 only and now to a new MacBook Pro retina that I can no longer use Firewire and so I had to buy a new Audio interface last year and went with USB 2.0 interface from Focusrite.

USB 3.0 is a pain under Windows 7. Simply because at the time Windows 7 came out everything was still USB 2.0 and so a lot of hardware manufacturers didn´t bother coding proper usb 3.0 drivers until Windows 8 came out.

Under Windows 8 the USB 3.0 drivers are good and USB 2.0 audio interfaces work flawlessly. Just make sure you go for a brand that delivers quality interfaces and know how to code proper drivers, like E-MU, M-audio, Motu and Focusrite.

Like I said, I have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 usb 2.0 and it works great under both Windows 8 and Mac OSX.

[bosonHavoc]

you can get a fire to thunderbolt adapter..

USB2 is not the wave of the future..
USB3 is the new USB and like thunderbolt it will take some time but it will take over.

firewire will trump usb2 in the real world
but make sure that your firewire card is a T.I. Chipset
very very important.. your firewire interface will probably not work otherwise.
that is why fireiwre gets a bad rap for PC's and if your on a laptop
your pretty much screwed. my fire controller also controls my express card slot so
even if when i purchased a firewire express card for my laptop i was out of luck.

pci/pcie card is the way to go if you are on a desktop

if you have more money then time or just more money go mac and thunderbolt
if you can handle a pc and your getting a desktop go pci/pcie

if your getting a laptop and want to use the best interfaces go mac

I switch hit owned macs and pc's
honestly i'm about done with windows
i'll never buy another pc laptop
i doubt i'll ever buy another pc desktop.

[dna598]

hmmm,

the fact is, firewire is dead.
you are best off getting a usb2 soundcard.

[Donnie]

Yep, firewire is done...stick a fork in it. Thunderbolt will squeeze a tad more life out of it though.

Updated USB device drivers on a good interface offer similar performance to firewire anyways. Sometimes better, sometimes worse depending on interface/driver quality and company. Personally, in the past few years, I find USB to be the more reliable interface overall. I have seen too many problems with firewire on both pc and mac.

[102455]

You should acknowledge the difference between pc firewire 400 (4pins - without power supply) and Mac firewire 400 (6pins).

....and you should learn that it's possible to have a PC with 6 pin FireWire ports. I'm using one right now. My previous PC also had 6 pin ports.

[El Epho]

Very interesting conversation. But in my case theree are some options mentioned here that are not on the table.

I'm using a desktop PC. So that removes some of the issues that were discussed. Anything that applies to a MAC is not applicable.

So, within the context of my situation, which way should I go? So far it's a tug of war between FW and USB (2 or is it 3?).

Hmmm ....

Ok .. so let's try this. Can any of these options be had no matter which motherboard I select as I configure this new computer? Or must I make the interface choice before I select the motherboard? Or is there some aspect I should include to leave my options completely wide open? Like some sort of PCI card slot option or whatever? Or is there some other thing I should have to leave me every interface choice available once the computer is built?

Since it is obvious ... painfully obvious ... that this audio interface choice is something that I will have to invest time and research into before I decide which way to go, I want to be sure this new comouter can handle any choice I make. So is there some aspect or ~thing~ I'll need to make sure this computer is outfitted with to make sure every option is open to me? That way I can move forward with the construction of the computer and deal with the interface later after I spend more time studying the issue?

Sorry, I am having a difficult time expressing my thoughts here and my words are hard to choose. Forgive my several attempts at getting this notion said.

So anyhow.... what do I need to do to make sure USB2, USB3, Thunderbolt, FireWire, PCI, PCIe, (other), options are wide open to me as I configure this new computer? I deon't want to close off any upgrade paths!

Thanks.

PS: I suppose Os was right then? BAH! This is really maddening! Haahaa!

[dna598]

im gonna sound like an advert here, but stop worrying and get whatever RME card you can afford. Starting with the USB2 RME babyface.

[El Epho]

im gonna sound like an advert here, but stop worrying and get whatever RME card you can afford. Starting with the USB2 RME babyface.

Ok, that is just barely within my budget. I had slated $700 as the TOP END for the audio interface, I see the RME is $750 at most outlets.

Price aside ....

Ok, so the data on that one says it has 12 outs. But they are divided up between analogue, ADAT, SP-dif, and so on. Are they all available simultaneously?

See, I want to be able to have as many outputs available as possible for using Silent Way. The ES1 interface accepts a total of 8 analogure intputs. If I go with the ADAT ES interface the price of it goes up from $200 for the ES1 to $325 for the ADAT unit.

So anyhow, aside from Expert Sleepers issues, if I devote all 8 tracks of ADAT do I still have the four tracks of analogue outputs available from the Babyface at the same time?

Talk to me! I am interested in learning about this unit you seem to be certain I'll like!