hey, all you long track warpers - audible pad chugging?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:50 pm

dont you find that quiet passages with any kind of sustained pad has an audible warp 'chugging' on the beat?

I dont DJ, so I only use long clips when I am pulling in effect 'drums', like one of my own reaktor beats behind my own playing. Those fx drums clips dont have much in the way of sustained pads. But I tried today pulling in a whole song as a clip and it just chuggs like crazy in the quieter passages. any sustaining note reveals the warping horribly.

I know a lot of people use follow actions to switch clip stretch modes in different passages to get around this (IE use tones for melodic bits) ..
but how do you people who use really long clips get on,I know someof you use full song clips to 'DJ'. Cant you hear it? or do you just DJ such hard techno that no-one cares!

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:14 pm

I hear it like hell on a few tracks, especially on big, long subby bass notes, so bad in fact that it made me stop using Live to dj and get into Traktor instead.

supster · Post by **supster** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:19 pm

sustained sounds .. like pads ... and sounds with low, long-waveform frequencies ... like bass ...

you are not going to be able to change tempo or pitch very far without some audible artifacts. the farther way from original bpm/pitch you go, the worse its going to be

some tracks you are not going to be able to push too far, its in the nature of the sounds and theres not much you can do about it.

sometimes using Tones mode on the clip, rather than beats, and playing with the grain control gives really good results tho. suprisingly good .....
.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:19 pm

I hear it like hell on a few tracks, especially on big, long subby bass notes, so bad in fact that it made me stop using Live to dj and get into Traktor instead.

thats what I was thinking, a lot of my stuff has breakdowns with long bass notes and pads .. urgh.

I usually use traktor if I am demoing some tunes at a party or whatever, but wondered if I could be using Live for this.. it seems not.

sometimes using Tones mode on the clip, rather than beats

RE:' tones' mode. on a full track it tends to blur my beats too much. If you dont like MP3 compression - you sure aint gonna like that sound !

they really need some more ( better) timestretching algo's if anyone really wants to use Live as a full track DJing app. An adaptive beats / tones mode would seem useful.

But then I'm no DJ so what do I know.

I'll stick to making tunes in Live my (un)usual way I think - with Traktor for DJ duties.

defunkt · Post by **defunkt** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:04 pm

try changing the trigger settins from e.g.1\16 to1\4 it works for me sometimes.tones setting works best for beatless music.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:35 pm

aye,
I tried that .. even so bold as to try the bar setting - which was interesting in a kind of '17 beats in the bar' kind of way!

I am pretty familiar with Live - but have never bothered using a whole full track warped. So, I was curious due to what seems a preponderance of DJs on the forum - I thought 'how the hell do some people use whole tracks warped, it must sound grim'

I think the warp methods and settings need a bit of an overhaul for this 'lazy mans DJ' method to work right. If I had any real desire to DJ other peoples music with Live I think the follow actions with multiple clips method would be be the only option.

Harris.Andrew · Post by **Harris.Andrew** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:09 pm

Rules of thumb (that can be bent): Beats mode for exclusively percussive material. Tones for Monophonics . . . like voice or leads. Textures for everything else

(To paraphrase what's in the manual)

Long bass-y pads won't work with anything but textures mode . . . I've gotten some really good results this kind of pad, just stretching, it sounds a bit lo-fi, but no audible chugging. Also by taking slightly higher pitch (or rather freq) pads and dropping them an octave or two.

For whole tracks . . . again textures I've gotten best results with, and stuff that's been decent enough for me to listen to.

chymera · Post by **chymera** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:21 pm

and if you're just djing long tracks, it may be better to repitch them instead of time stretch them. This is the principle of mixing on decks after all.

supster · Post by **supster** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:24 pm

Angstrom wrote: RE:' tones' mode. on a full track it tends to blur my beats too much. If you dont like MP3 compression - you sure aint gonna like that sound !

yes, on some tracks it does ... but on others no.

Ive been able to change pitch on full tracks almost 10 bpm ... pitch a few semitones ... using tones mode, with hardly any audible artifacts.

it totally depends on the track, cant give any rules of thumb, but i always try it if beats mode is not working.
.

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:41 am

NOW! Here's a reason for Ableton to allow clip automations of warp mode. When your big break comes, it could automatically switch to the proper warping mode.

I just thought of this - what a killer fuckin feature!!!

MrYellow · Post by **MrYellow** » Sat May 07, 2005 2:00 am

RE:' tones' mode. on a full track it tends to blur my beats too much. If you
dont like MP3 compression - you sure aint gonna like that sound !

Could try the EQ method where you make a copy of the track, warp one
EQ'd section with one method, the other with another, rince repeat.

NOW! Here's a reason for Ableton to allow clip automations of warp mode.
When your big break comes, it could automatically switch to the proper
warping mode.

Not sure this would really fit the paradigm, probably end up with problems
in clips that aren't using this "feature".

Instead.... why not just make a copy of the clip and section out the
breakdown. Then you can play it when u like, when the crowd is ready for it,
and as a bonus it will be perfectly warped.

-Ben

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:32 am

MrYellow wrote:
NOW! Here's a reason for Ableton to allow clip automations of warp mode.
When your big break comes, it could automatically switch to the proper
warping mode.
Not sure this would really fit the paradigm, probably end up with problems
in clips that aren't using this "feature".

Instead.... why not just make a copy of the clip and section out the
breakdown. Then you can play it when u like, when the crowd is ready for it,
and as a bonus it will be perfectly warped.

-Ben

I don't know if that would make problems or not, but you do offer a good workaround - particularly with follow actions. Just have your long track split into sections, arranged vertically, with follow actions after each section and use the right warping mode for each section.

voila.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:48 am

Hope that Live 5 incorporates an improved algorithm.

And DAMN sure hope (I'm sure it will) it reads Live 4 .asd files!

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sat May 07, 2005 2:52 pm

montrealbreaks said:WOW! Here's a reason for Ableton to allow clip automations of warp mode. When your big break comes, it could automatically switch to the proper warping mode.

I just thought of this - what a killer fuckin feature!!!

ah , yes ... but if you look a few posts up.

Angstrom said: if anyone really wants to use Live as a full track DJing app an adaptive beats / tones mode would seem useful.

Thats what I was thinking of, although I didnt really spell it out - you must have subconciously absorbed it! I think you are right though, it would be a good feature.

I think I would be nervous about leaving it on auto for everything - but it should work really ...
if there are repeating musical figures for 2 or 4 bars then Live should consider those bars 'beats'. But if the beat suddenly shifts to quarter notes .. perhaps switch to beats: 1/4 note mode. automatically. No beats in a bar? 'tones'
Obviously you would want the option to turn this auto detection off if needed!

Alternatively I envisaged 'tones' / beats markers in the clip - so when your clip play head crosses a marker it switches mode. It's kind of like using follow actions I know .. but uses up less track slots. I'm still hoping for my 'meta clip' wish to take root in V5 . I use follow actions quite a lot and dont like the way they take up room
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18875&

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Sat May 07, 2005 3:52 pm

Angstrom wrote:
I think I would be nervous about leaving it on auto for everything - but it should work really ...
if there are repeating musical figures for 2 or 4 bars then Live should consider those bars 'beats'. But if the beat suddenly shifts to quarter notes .. perhaps switch to beats: 1/4 note mode. automatically. No beats in a bar? 'tones'
Obviously you would want the option to turn this auto detection off if needed!

Alternatively I envisaged 'tones' / beats markers in the clip - so when your clip play head crosses a marker it switches mode. It's kind of like using follow actions I know .. but uses up less track slots. I'm still hoping for my 'meta clip' wish to take root in V5 . I use follow actions quite a lot and dont like the way they take up room
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18875&

I think that having it automatic would be cool, but that sounds like a hell of a lot of reprogramming - and I would question its CPU usage as well, it sounds like a lot of analysis and calculation for EVERY clip running... I guess in the meantime, Follow actions triggering different portions of the song will have to do...