waves vs live 9 suite effect devices | ozone also

[jimdw]

hey all,

perhaps it's kind of a silly or even unfair subject title, sorry. but i'm hoping to get some good real world experience-based feedback from people who have worked a lot with live effect devices and waves. i have decent live skills and i know some of the basics of mixing, but i don't have any real serious mixing or mastering experience. i hear nothing but good about waves but how much better is it than what we have in live 9 suite and max? is it profoundly, stupidly better? or do you have to really listen for the difference? and how is it better exactly? sonics, processing, ease of use...? is it solid? does it use a ton of resources? (i'm on a macbook pro already pushing my CPU meter with 8GB ram and 2.66 i7.)

one thing i will say is i quite like working with live's devices and how easy it is to create racks, chains, automation and all that. so i am reluctant to lose that (plus the $$$:) unless i'm getting a big, unequivocal payoff.

any comments are welcome and greatly appreciated. specifically, i'm looking at packages like gold and/or the vocal stuff like the signature series. and, not to convolute things but i'm also considering izotope ozone for mastering...the regular version, not the advanced.

in case it's helpful, here's more about what i'm doing: i'm just recording myself--not clients, so this is your typical guy and his ideas and inspiration and small studio setup. i use acoustic, electric and MIDI guitar, vocals, virtual synths and electronic drums and samples. genres vary--singer/songwriter; electro, electro-pop, experimental, postrock, soundtrack whatever. obviously i want good compression, EQ, reverb, limiting/maximizing, etc.

at the end of the day i realize that when it comes to my best material that i really want to push, i may still have to send things out for mixing and mastering. but i want to be able to get the best sounds i can for everything i do...and if i can pull off getting truly great, competitive mixes/masters, all the better.

thanks a bunch,

jim

[3dot...]

Waves...iZotope make amazing processors.... I recommend them

but I'd say start with Lives' many (also excellent) built-in ones.. and Max mad creations..
if you know what you're doing you will get good results out of them...

if you're not satisfied with the arsenal in live...
try out other 3rd party plugins demos.. and purchase if something sticks.

[login]

IMHO Live effects are good, the bet reason to get something else is to get something different or not included in live.

[mihai]

live's plugins are quite good but where waves shines over them is in their emu/post-production plugins.
since you're still learning how to mix stick to live's plugins and learn what compression, eq, etc. actually do instead of getting into a rat race of 76 over 160 over distressor over etc. without understanding the purpose of each different flavor of processor, analog or digital.

[eyeknow]

This is a hard question to answer in many areas. For me, the waves that I have are very specific. Bass rider, REDD, Aphex Exciter, Loair, RenBass, they all have specific needs that they fill. For example, I got Loair really cheap (25 bucks I think?) and it has the ability to be good on kicks. REDD can have several uses, but what sold me was putting it on a guitar buss. Renbass is just great for all bass, especially synth bass. Aphex exciter is my fav, You can use it inline or on a buss.

So here is my point, if there is something you are lacking and you like the demo, and can afford it, then waves make some mighty fine plugs.

Is there a list of what you are interested in?

[geddy]

I use Wave plug-ins a lot but it eats my RAM. If I use too many of the plug-ins, Live just crashes. This can get ANNOYING!

So I will be installing the 64bit version of Live very soon!

[jimdw]

hey. thanks for the thoughtful responses. learning how to use stuff first makes a lot of sense and i do know enough to know i don’t know enough…but in the meantime i still want the best sounds i can so tough call on how to proceed...

and then part of what prompted this is waves has a sale now. 50% off gold (so, $399) and some other stuff. so part of this is me not wanting to miss out if it’s something if i’m going to need it down the road but won’t be able to afford at regular price. but i also don’t want to make a rash decision and fall into a marketing trap…

as far as a list…there are a few things i use a lot already and know i need to use, whether as live devices or waves:
compression, limiting/maximizing, EQ/filters, saturation/disortion, and reverb. in particular i feel i want more from compression, limiting, reverb and saturation. but i honestly don’t know if that’s because live’s devices are lacking or my skills are…or even if my expectations are unreasonable. i feel like live’s delays and EQs are ok but somebody can correct me if i’m wrong.

the aphex exciter is appealing in principle and by reputation. i’ve had distressors on my voice when i’ve been in a ‘real’ studio and it worked well. but, yeah, i don’t know the differences between options well enough at all or how to use them.

when i look at waves gold the things i am most interested in are renaissance compressor, L1, maxxbass, ren verb, IR-L, stereo imager, doubler. maybe tune LT for occasional correction or effect…

then i was looking at the waves vocal signature series which is four different chains, each by a big name engineer/mixer. seems like it might be a good way for a newbie like me to get good vocal sounds, starting with a well tested chain and then modifying for my own sound…

ozone: i like the all in one interface for mastering cuz once you’re in that mode you can do everything in one place. it has a harmonic exciter, reverb, EQ, IRC3 limiter, compressor, gate, stereo imager. but that would only address mastering and not mixing or individual component tracks (unless you shell out $1k for advanced.)

how about the processor load of waves plug-ins? have others noticed something like geddy mentioned? does waves generally use more for a similar process/application? as mentioned, i’m already maxing my cpu too often with lots of tracks and effects and i have my macbook pro’s RAM maxed.

thanks,

jim

ps: oh yeah. and i've also got a composer pro MDX 2200. in my current scheme with that for recording and then i do everything else in the box...but it is part of the scheme. and i've got the MOTU stuff that came with the mk3 ultralite. i haven't played with or researched those effects/dynamics much. i prefer doing everything in live and don't always have the other gear hooked up to my laptop. but it is there...

[miekwave]

You can emulate a lot of Ozone 5 functions by creating your own custom Effects Rack

EFFECTS RACK - Set up Parallel effects chain in your Rack for each OZone function, and mix to taste

O Zone Harmonic Exciter can be emulated with Parallel (Wet Dry) Ableton OVERDRIVE and/or Ableton UTILITY+ SATURATOR effects (the Harmonic Exciter is basically a LPF signal processed with a waveform shaper to produce harmonics for lower ended notes.

OZONE MAXIMIZER can be emulated with Ableton UTILITY+ LIMITER or GLUE

STEREO IMAGEING can be emulated With 2 Ableton UTILITY Effects and EQ8 you need to config your A/B, Stereo or MS modes for "Stereo Width" effects.

etc

[3dot...]

I use Wave plug-ins a lot but it eats my RAM. If I use too many of the plug-ins, Live just crashes. This can get ANNOYING!

So I will be installing the 64bit version of Live very soon!

audio processing does not consume RAM...
big audio files / priming of sample libraries do.. .just an FYI

[geddy]

I use Wave plug-ins a lot but it eats my RAM. If I use too many of the plug-ins, Live just crashes. This can get ANNOYING!

So I will be installing the 64bit version of Live very soon!

audio processing does not consume RAM...
big audio files / priming of sample libraries do.. .just an FYI

What causes my computer to crash then?

Live only allows me a certain amount of Wave plug-ins before it crashes. As soon as I go that 'one over' it freezes and crashes. I have to start removing "unused" wave plug-ins in order for me to add any extra. The CPU does not look hard pushed at all?

[3dot...]

I use Wave plug-ins a lot but it eats my RAM. If I use too many of the plug-ins, Live just crashes. This can get ANNOYING!

So I will be installing the 64bit version of Live very soon!

audio processing does not consume RAM...
big audio files / priming of sample libraries do.. .just an FYI

What causes my computer to crash then?

Live only allows me a certain amount of Wave plug-ins before it crashes. As soon as I go that 'one over' it freezes and crashes. I have to start removing "unused" wave plug-ins in order for me to add any extra. The CPU does not look hard pushed at all?

try updating your graphics driver...
or updating your waves plugins using the latest installer from the website..

[3dot...]

You can emulate a lot of Ozone 5 functions by creating your own custom Effects Rack

EFFECTS RACK - Set up Parallel effects chain in your Rack for each OZone function, and mix to taste

O Zone Harmonic Exciter can be emulated with Parallel (Wet Dry) Ableton OVERDRIVE and/or Ableton UTILITY+ SATURATOR effects (the Harmonic Exciter is basically a LPF signal processed with a waveform shaper to produce harmonics for lower ended notes.

OZONE MAXIMIZER can be emulated with Ableton UTILITY+ LIMITER or GLUE

STEREO IMAGEING can be emulated With 2 Ableton UTILITY Effects and EQ8 you need to config your A/B, Stereo or MS modes for "Stereo Width" effects.

etc

true... but the that's the thing with ozone... you don't need to recreate.. it's been done for you...
Ozone is an "all-in-one" approach to mastering..
where Waves/Ableton devices are "mix and match" style..
adding Waves plugins arsenal to the whole Ableton racks/chains scheme is where it's at for me..

[mihai]

to add on to what 3dot said it's also useful to have any 3rd party plugins if you're looking for consistency when switching daws.

[Fernando Carvalho]

Eq 8 is more than fine now, the comp is good and gate is much better now. The glue is suberb. Multiband dynamics works grate, I use it a lot.

If you want to add something, try the cheaper alternatives, cheaper but as good if not better than more expensive stuff like waves.

Personally I like toneboosters and klanghelm, they make outstanding effects for a fraction of what they deserve.

If you look for reverb and modulation, look to Valhalla too. Übermod is one of the craziest effect plugin ever made, it can be almost anything. His last reverb is something very special too, top lush reverbs like the old good times, in the box for 50 bucks. Amazing.

[3dot...]

Eq 8 is more than fine now, the comp is good and gate is much better now. The glue is suberb. Multiband dynamics works grate, I use it a lot.

If you want to add something, try the cheaper alternatives, cheaper but as good if not better than more expensive stuff like waves.

Personally I like toneboosters and klanghelm, they make outstanding effects for a fraction of what they deserve.

If you look for reverb and modulation, look to Valhalla too. Übermod is one of the craziest effect plugin ever made, it can be almost anything. His last reverb is something very special too, top lush reverbs like the old good times, in the box for 50 bucks. Amazing.

new eq8 and compressor are done by 'cytomic'...
some others done by 'softube'..
and some suite synths by AAS...
some by max/msp architects...

there are companies (like Cytomic.. Waves .. iZotope etc.) which specialize is DSP/research..
Ableton has outsourced audio effects development since Live7.... in stead they're focusing on the DAW side which is good imo...while integrating individually developed high class plugins
this is why it also makes sense to pick and choose when you're getting your plugins..(Ableton has been doing it for you in any case)