Instrument Definition Files...

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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DemonTraitor
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:05 pm

Instrument Definition Files...

Post by DemonTraitor » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:08 pm

Basically I have come from Cakewalk Sonar, that has "Instrument Definition Files" that allow you to map Patches Names in the sequencer to patches on your MIDI device.

I have a Novation Bass Station 2 plugged into Live 9, is there any way to create a definition file so I can select patches easier with names, and a proper numbering sequence? At the moment I have to select "Pgm 1" to select patch 0 on my BS2. Would really love the definition file feature like in Sonar.... ;)

Thanks

Demon

twistedkeys
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:38 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by twistedkeys » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Hello - I don't think this is supported natively in Ableton Live. You can try the ReaControlMIDI plugin from REAPER ReaPlugs VST FX Suite, http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/. This is a free plugin that you load into a MIDI track in Live, then open a reabank file that contains patch information of external MIDI device. It even supports Cakewalk 'Instrument Definitions Files' or *.ins. I have not tried it in Live but it works with other DAWs. Hope this helps! -Fled

DemonTraitor
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by DemonTraitor » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:41 pm

twistedkeys wrote:Hello - I don't think this is supported natively in Ableton Live. You can try the ReaControlMIDI plugin from REAPER ReaPlugs VST FX Suite, http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/. This is a free plugin that you load into a MIDI track in Live, then open a reabank file that contains patch information of external MIDI device. It even supports Cakewalk 'Instrument Definitions Files' or *.ins. I have not tried it in Live but it works with other DAWs. Hope this helps! -Fled
Thanks. Giving it a go now :)

bryantwalley
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:43 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by bryantwalley » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:52 pm

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread, but this one is already coming up in the search and I hate forum sprawl.

We are now in Ableton Live 11. Is the use of the 3rd party plugin still required for something this simple? The use of the INS file should have been integrated by now. Does the 3rd party option recommended in the thread still work?

Sorry if these things seem trivial, but I like to be educated on my decisions. Haphazardly installing things on computers just to see if they work is not my thing.

Any follow up information would be helpful.

Thanks.

bichuelo
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:47 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by bichuelo » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:00 pm

Many synths of the new generation have their own editors that can run as plug-ins. Some of the previous ones like the Moog Voyager have a M4L device made by a user which can work pretty well

Since there are so many old synths with very complex MIDI implementation, but with a very small user base, I would not expect the .INS format to be adopted by Ableton

I'd love to have something like this for my Casio VZ series, but I think it's sort of a daydream

pottering
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by pottering » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:09 pm

That's basically handled in M4L in Live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry5N7avqAgg

https://alijamieson.co.uk/2017/12/13/ma ... ve-part-1/

https://alijamieson.co.uk/2018/09/02/ma ... ve-part-2/

It is easier to build than it looks (after getting the basic stuff done for one knob one time, you can just dupe it X times, you can also re-use it though multiple M4L devices), but if you don't want to, most popular synths already have a M4L editor in maxforlive.com.

For example, OP's Bass Station 2 has several editors:

https://maxforlive.com/library/index.ph ... ss+station

If you bother building, M4L has the advantage you can cluster related stuff (like ADSR's CC) visually together, instead of having just a list of CC sliders.
♥♥♥

bryantwalley
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:43 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by bryantwalley » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:55 am

bichuelo,

Thanks for the follow up. Implementing it into Ableton Live would not take a remedial coder more than an hour or two. It is a simple text file that contains the Bank and Patch information for the physical instrument and sends the change information when selected from the drop down list box. In fact, part of the implementation is already in Ableton Live. I can select the external instrument and then select the channels 1 to 16. That is the first part. They just need to add the other two. One for Bank and one for Patch and then add a place to import the text file.

pottering,

thanks also. I will have to look more into the M4L. I watched the videos and they look to be a very over convoluted way to do something that is other wise so simple. Especially since the INS implementation is so straight forward and simple and INS files are very easy to write.

I saw a request topic on the main board. I will give it a shot.

bichuelo
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:47 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by bichuelo » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:21 pm

based on pottering's reply and your description, maybe a single M4L device will be able to read .INS files?

I haven't digged into Max though, hopefully this is possible!

bryantwalley
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:43 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by bryantwalley » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:35 pm

Oh well. After digging through Max For Live, that also appears to be a dead end. I am really starting to regret my purchase of Ableton Live. If there is no way to define external hardware, the program is pretty much useless to anyone trying to use it as a full featured DAW. Perhaps that is not Abletons intent. Having to go to the physical gear and set the banks and channels manually is a cruel joke.

kainandableton
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by kainandableton » Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:11 pm

i second the request for instrument definitions.
Also a feature on Hapax and a godsent one.

jlgrimes
Posts: 1781
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:55 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by jlgrimes » Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:05 pm

bryantwalley wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:35 pm
Oh well. After digging through Max For Live, that also appears to be a dead end. I am really starting to regret my purchase of Ableton Live. If there is no way to define external hardware, the program is pretty much useless to anyone trying to use it as a full featured DAW. Perhaps that is not Abletons intent. Having to go to the physical gear and set the banks and channels manually is a cruel joke.
This would be nice to have. Coming from Sonar, I wanted this for years but have kind of accepted over the years Ableton has a very different approach in terms of hardware integration vs other DAWS from the 80's-90s.

Back in the Day the ins files achieved a couple of purposes:

1. Allowed you to browse hardware patches from the PC,

2. More or less supported total recall of your sequences (with some caveats).


Ableton's workflow revolves more around converting your hardware to audio (which wasn't readily available in most 80s-90s DAWS) which would have made INS files alot more important back then.

In which the problem is if you need the midi later and didn't save your track before committing to audio, you would need to replay (or try reconverting back to midi which isn't a perfect process.) Also you might not remember what patch you used.

I wonder how many M4L hardware integration tools their are and if they have alot of the old Rompler support like JV1080 (That said many of the classic Romplers now have VST equivalents now which might be a viable solution)

noexit
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:45 pm

Re: Instrument Definition Files...

Post by noexit » Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:41 am

I'd love to see Instrument Definition file implementation. ALSO coming from Sonar, I'd also like to see recording SYSEX data in REALTIME, just as would a CC data stream. My Roland Juno 106 sends SYSEX data anytime a slider is moved thus we can change all the basic patch parameters REALTIME in the midi stream. Sure wish Ableton would pick up both of these functionalities. Sonar has them!

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